7 ms·

Love that this starts you right in the terminal and VSCode from the outset. A friend has been on the Codecademy grind as a new developer, and ~1 year in she is

Love that this starts you right in the terminal and VSCode from the outset. A friend has been on the Codecademy grind as a new developer, and ~1 year in she is continually frustrated with how little focus it places on real-world tools and experiences. It seems they want to keep you in their in-browser interpreter for as long as they reasonably can.

bshipp 4y ago
So many courses demand you start in a text editor and I understand the rationale but I write almost everything in PyCharm and strongly encourage everyone to find a comfortable IDE. If the intention of coding in Python is to get stuff done quickly, it seems a bit silly to handcuff yourself by avoiding one of the biggest time-savers.
- DiggyJohnson 4y ago
  > biggest time-savers I strongly believe there's a balance to be struck between getting started quickly and understanding how your code is run. Especially if it's an interpreted language like Python. If you do understand opening a terminal in your project's repository and executing `python3 ./mypythonfile` then this should be prioritized. Even for noobs.
  - grvdrm 4y ago
    Completely agree with your last point. So many of my tools over the years have stuck with their simple command line initiation rather than wrapping into GUIs or other alternatives. Being able quickly write “python [whatever you are doing]” is awesome.
  - mavhc 4y ago
    When teaching noobs I first have to tell them how to make folders, create files, what files are and where they are stored, modern systems abstract that all away. I want them to realise that code is just text files, same with html
  - DiggyJohnson 4y ago
    Edit: :3s/do/don’t
  - bombolo 4y ago
    I worked with "senior" developers who were absolutely unable to run the project they were working on from a terminal. It was either the "play" button in the IDE or nothing.
- Stratoscope 4y ago
  If I were teaching someone Python, or pretty much any programming language, the first place I would start is the debugger. I would have them write a program as simple as this: x = 1 print(x) y = 2 print(x, y) And then instead of just running it, I'd have them step through the code, line by line, and observe both the console output and the debugger variable display. Some developers seem to think that using a debugger is a sign of weakness, or that it leads you to write bad code. I see it differently: the debugger is one of the best tools not only for debugging, but also to help you understand a complex codebase that you are jumping into.
  - zikzak 4y ago
    I end up helping developers when they get stuck all the time and it is really amazing to me how many people get to the "senior developer" point in their career with very little understanding of how to use SQL tracing (e.g. MS SQL server) and IDE debugging. Even the concept of the "print line" debugging into a lot file seems kind of foreign to them sometimes. They instead rely on running the code, changing something, running it again, etc. I am a big fan of reading through the code. That is almost always enough for me to find the issue and point it out to them assuming I understand the input and output context well enough. But if that doesn't work, add a debug point and fire it up. Not using a debugger seems like a massive waste of time in a situation like this. So much so that I have started asking "did you debug this" or "have you watched this happen in a debugger" before I will help out much. If they say "no" because they don't know how, I will teach them to do so.
    - bornfreddy 4y ago
      > ...of how to use SQL tracing (e.g. MS SQL server)... Never met this term before - IIUC, SQL tracing is MS-specific? If I may ask, in what kind of situations would you use it?
      - zikzak 4y ago
        Yes, I think it might be SQL specific but you can normally do this in any transnational db I have worked with (I am old, I don't use GraphQL or NoSQL dbs very often, if at all). Basically, it is just a journal of all queries (really ANYTHING going on in the db but for developers it is useful to limit to queries) and typically filtered by database and by keyword (e.g. table or stored procedure name). You can set up a trace to track long-running queries on a production server (DBA might do this) or on a dev server a developer might use it to capture SQL run from their code (e.g. a complex stored procedure with a lot of input params) so you don't have to try to assemble the SQL using a debugger, for example. A good example might be "I am doing everything right in code, but the data set is coming back empty" so you profile it and realize the SQL is being called with an empty string and not a null, or whatever. When reviewing the code you thought "it will be a null". That kind of thing.
vageli 4y ago
exercism.org (no affiliation) is pretty good in that regard, offering a cli to facilitate doing the exercises locally using tools you're already familiar with.
- __MatrixMan__ 4y ago
  I like exercism, but the CLI can hide things like what a sane project structure looks like in that language. I wish it generated a project with unit tests and told you which command to run (i.e. not an exercism command) in order to run those tests. That way you've got a more similar experience to what would happen if you cloned a project in that language and wanted to contribute. Unfamiliar languages are much easier to deal with than unfamiliar tool chains IMO
  - BeetleB 4y ago
    It depends on the language. Some of their language tracks definitely do give those instructions.
    - __MatrixMan__ 4y ago
      Ah, good point. Either I did that thing where I only thought I was reading, or nim could use some work.
  - voicedYoda 4y ago
    I've had success in the CLI with elixir, running tests, and structure
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- lonelycompiler 4y ago
  I second this, exercism.com is one of the best most practical cli ways I’ve found for a learning a new language.
holoduke 4y ago
I strongly believe that you cannot be a good python or any other language developer without first a good linux shell use knowledge. Specially python of runs in nix environments. How can you ever develop without knowing these systems is beyond my understanding.
- Austizzle 4y ago
  I've been a windows user forever, played with Ubuntu for a little bit years back, but I definitely don't know Linux well. The only times that I ever use Linux are in docker containers. I've spent years writing java, python, php, and only occasionally need to use a Linux shell. When I do, Google and stack overflow are good enough to get the job done. Sure, maybe in some domains it's incredibly useful, but to be a decent developer? Not at all.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- Barrin92 4y ago
  you can't be a good developer if you don't learn how programs are actually built and run at some point, but in my opinion it's counterproductive to start out with it. My first language in uni was Java and we did start with the 'text editor + compile from cli' approach and 99% of people who were new to it literally don't get what or why they're typing obscure commands into the terminal.
- mkl 4y ago
  I think your understanding is rather limited. It is quite easy to become a good developer in Python (or a lot of other languages) without ever touching Linux. Many people do it, and always have. Does that mean they have the same skill set as you, or can solve the same problems in the same ways? No. But that doesn't mean they aren't good developers.
- rxhernandez 4y ago
  I would bet that at least 90% of the best embedded engineers I've known, don't have basic Linux shell knowledge. Frankly, Your ability to develop good code has little to do with whether or not you've touched a specific OS' shell

bshipp 4y ago

So many courses demand you start in a text editor and I understand the rationale but I write almost everything in PyCharm and strongly encourage everyone to find a comfortable IDE. If the intention of coding in Python is to get stuff done quickly, it seems a bit silly to handcuff yourself by avoiding one of the biggest time-savers.

DiggyJohnson 4y ago
> biggest time-savers I strongly believe there's a balance to be struck between getting started quickly and understanding how your code is run. Especially if it's an interpreted language like Python. If you do understand opening a terminal in your project's repository and executing `python3 ./mypythonfile` then this should be prioritized. Even for noobs.
- grvdrm 4y ago
  Completely agree with your last point. So many of my tools over the years have stuck with their simple command line initiation rather than wrapping into GUIs or other alternatives. Being able quickly write “python [whatever you are doing]” is awesome.
- mavhc 4y ago
  When teaching noobs I first have to tell them how to make folders, create files, what files are and where they are stored, modern systems abstract that all away. I want them to realise that code is just text files, same with html
- DiggyJohnson 4y ago
  Edit: :3s/do/don’t
- bombolo 4y ago
  I worked with "senior" developers who were absolutely unable to run the project they were working on from a terminal. It was either the "play" button in the IDE or nothing.
Stratoscope 4y ago
If I were teaching someone Python, or pretty much any programming language, the first place I would start is the debugger. I would have them write a program as simple as this: x = 1 print(x) y = 2 print(x, y) And then instead of just running it, I'd have them step through the code, line by line, and observe both the console output and the debugger variable display. Some developers seem to think that using a debugger is a sign of weakness, or that it leads you to write bad code. I see it differently: the debugger is one of the best tools not only for debugging, but also to help you understand a complex codebase that you are jumping into.
- zikzak 4y ago
  I end up helping developers when they get stuck all the time and it is really amazing to me how many people get to the "senior developer" point in their career with very little understanding of how to use SQL tracing (e.g. MS SQL server) and IDE debugging. Even the concept of the "print line" debugging into a lot file seems kind of foreign to them sometimes. They instead rely on running the code, changing something, running it again, etc. I am a big fan of reading through the code. That is almost always enough for me to find the issue and point it out to them assuming I understand the input and output context well enough. But if that doesn't work, add a debug point and fire it up. Not using a debugger seems like a massive waste of time in a situation like this. So much so that I have started asking "did you debug this" or "have you watched this happen in a debugger" before I will help out much. If they say "no" because they don't know how, I will teach them to do so.
  - bornfreddy 4y ago
    > ...of how to use SQL tracing (e.g. MS SQL server)... Never met this term before - IIUC, SQL tracing is MS-specific? If I may ask, in what kind of situations would you use it?
    - zikzak 4y ago
      Yes, I think it might be SQL specific but you can normally do this in any transnational db I have worked with (I am old, I don't use GraphQL or NoSQL dbs very often, if at all). Basically, it is just a journal of all queries (really ANYTHING going on in the db but for developers it is useful to limit to queries) and typically filtered by database and by keyword (e.g. table or stored procedure name). You can set up a trace to track long-running queries on a production server (DBA might do this) or on a dev server a developer might use it to capture SQL run from their code (e.g. a complex stored procedure with a lot of input params) so you don't have to try to assemble the SQL using a debugger, for example. A good example might be "I am doing everything right in code, but the data set is coming back empty" so you profile it and realize the SQL is being called with an empty string and not a null, or whatever. When reviewing the code you thought "it will be a null". That kind of thing.

vageli 4y ago

exercism.org (no affiliation) is pretty good in that regard, offering a cli to facilitate doing the exercises locally using tools you're already familiar with.

__MatrixMan__ 4y ago
I like exercism, but the CLI can hide things like what a sane project structure looks like in that language. I wish it generated a project with unit tests and told you which command to run (i.e. not an exercism command) in order to run those tests. That way you've got a more similar experience to what would happen if you cloned a project in that language and wanted to contribute. Unfamiliar languages are much easier to deal with than unfamiliar tool chains IMO
- BeetleB 4y ago
  It depends on the language. Some of their language tracks definitely do give those instructions.
  - __MatrixMan__ 4y ago
    Ah, good point. Either I did that thing where I only thought I was reading, or nim could use some work.
- voicedYoda 4y ago
  I've had success in the CLI with elixir, running tests, and structure
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
lonelycompiler 4y ago
I second this, exercism.com is one of the best most practical cli ways I’ve found for a learning a new language.

holoduke 4y ago

I strongly believe that you cannot be a good python or any other language developer without first a good linux shell use knowledge. Specially python of runs in nix environments. How can you ever develop without knowing these systems is beyond my understanding.

Austizzle 4y ago
I've been a windows user forever, played with Ubuntu for a little bit years back, but I definitely don't know Linux well. The only times that I ever use Linux are in docker containers. I've spent years writing java, python, php, and only occasionally need to use a Linux shell. When I do, Google and stack overflow are good enough to get the job done. Sure, maybe in some domains it's incredibly useful, but to be a decent developer? Not at all.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
Barrin92 4y ago
you can't be a good developer if you don't learn how programs are actually built and run at some point, but in my opinion it's counterproductive to start out with it. My first language in uni was Java and we did start with the 'text editor + compile from cli' approach and 99% of people who were new to it literally don't get what or why they're typing obscure commands into the terminal.
mkl 4y ago
I think your understanding is rather limited. It is quite easy to become a good developer in Python (or a lot of other languages) without ever touching Linux. Many people do it, and always have. Does that mean they have the same skill set as you, or can solve the same problems in the same ways? No. But that doesn't mean they aren't good developers.
rxhernandez 4y ago
I would bet that at least 90% of the best embedded engineers I've known, don't have basic Linux shell knowledge. Frankly, Your ability to develop good code has little to do with whether or not you've touched a specific OS' shell