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Do you have any examples of something like this happening in Europe. I understand that Americans tend to think like this. But proportionality works quite well

Do you have any examples of something like this happening in Europe. I understand that Americans tend to think like this. But proportionality works quite well in Europe: Large companies get more scrutiny and higher fines while small companies get a warning.

krono 4y ago
Yes (see my reply to your sibling comment 1) but these are not large cases and I'd rather not connect this HN account to my real life activities. All but one of the cases ended in a warning, but it does show the increased scrutiny that smaller entities seem to enjoy. Edit: just to clarify me or my business were not directly involved with all those cases, but in the one that we were, it was something we had simply overlooked with regards to GDPR and all was good immediately when the auditor determined we had resolved the problem 1 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35012128 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35012128
unity1001 4y ago
Not so since GDPR. GDPR is enforced at every level, including the individual. Whereas 10% of the global revenue of a megacorp only upsets the shareholders a little without ever risking the megacorps power, it can literally bankrupt or starve individuals and small businesses, most of which operate with thin margins. https://www.enforcementtracker.com/ https://www.enforcementtracker.com/ This trend is similar to how the megacorps block out competition in the US by killing small businesses and making it very difficult to engage in economic or engineering activity through the regulations they sponsor. This law in particular seems to be the product of the private German interests which at the moment dominate the Euparl. So, yeah, its happening in Europe now too.
- cccbbbaaa 4y ago
  Per your link, proportionality seems to be working. Big fines are directed towards big companies (cf. Fines Statistics). For individuals (“private person” or “private individual”), it seems they mostly are fined 3-digits amounts, with some in the 4-digits, and 3 at 10-11k.
  - unity1001 4y ago
    > proportionality seems to be working The fine is arbitrarily decided. There isnt anything solid governing the amount if the fine is not % of revenue. So it totally depends on the whim of the regulator. Which is totally in lieu of the principles of civil law that Europe uses. Its more like the common law practice in which the authority can interpret things and can act arbitrarily without solid, inviolable, democratically-made laws governing its behavior. This may look like working today. Tomorrow you may find it disproportionately hitting whichever segment or sector that the interests behind the incumbent regulatory appointees target.
    - cccbbbaaa 4y ago
      > The fine is arbitrarily decided. There isnt anything solid governing the amount if the fine is not % of revenue This is wrong. See GDPR article 83, and https://edpb.europa.eu/system/files/2022-05/edpb_guidelines_042022_calculationofadministrativefines_en.pdf https://edpb.europa.eu/system/files/2022-05/edpb_guidelines_...
      - unity1001 4y ago
        > This is done by evaluating the classification of the infringement in the GDPR, evaluating the seriousness of the infringement in light of the circumstances of the case, and evaluating the turnover of the undertaking. The third step is the evaluation of aggravating and mitigating circumstances related to past or present behaviour of the controller/processor and increasing or decreasing the fine accordingly How is 'evaluation' done and who does the 'evaluating' you think... There is no solid legal directive defined in GDPR regarding static amounts. They hinge on on the regulators' interpretations.
        cccbbbaaa 4y ago
        Thankfully, there is still 38 pages left after that quote. You will have a hard time finding a flowchart in a law though… Anyway, my point was that the fines dispensed nowadays are sensible. As for the future, DPAs know very well that the instant they go rogue, ie. distribute disproportionate fines or misinterpret the law, their decisions will be reversed by an appeal court. It already happened, in fact. edit: I just read this on the website of my govt: > The court that sentences the offender is free to set the amount of the fine, but not to exceed the maximum amount set for that offence. Turns out judges here have even more leeway than my DPA! The finepocalypse should come any day from now. And don't get me started on courts of assizes.
redeeman 4y ago
i can say with quite some confidence that huge companies in europe do not get the same level of scrutiny from the tax department as some regular joe does. They will come after the little guy with the full force of the state, with their lackeys wearing a pistol belt, and you had better comply, or else. Meanwhile they dont have resources to perform audits on the big guys

krono 4y ago

Yes (see my reply to your sibling comment 1) but these are not large cases and I'd rather not connect this HN account to my real life activities. All but one of the cases ended in a warning, but it does show the increased scrutiny that smaller entities seem to enjoy. Edit: just to clarify me or my business were not directly involved with all those cases, but in the one that we were, it was something we had simply overlooked with regards to GDPR and all was good immediately when the auditor determined we had resolved the problem 1 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35012128 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35012128

unity1001 4y ago

Not so since GDPR. GDPR is enforced at every level, including the individual. Whereas 10% of the global revenue of a megacorp only upsets the shareholders a little without ever risking the megacorps power, it can literally bankrupt or starve individuals and small businesses, most of which operate with thin margins. https://www.enforcementtracker.com/ https://www.enforcementtracker.com/ This trend is similar to how the megacorps block out competition in the US by killing small businesses and making it very difficult to engage in economic or engineering activity through the regulations they sponsor. This law in particular seems to be the product of the private German interests which at the moment dominate the Euparl. So, yeah, its happening in Europe now too.

cccbbbaaa 4y ago
Per your link, proportionality seems to be working. Big fines are directed towards big companies (cf. Fines Statistics). For individuals (“private person” or “private individual”), it seems they mostly are fined 3-digits amounts, with some in the 4-digits, and 3 at 10-11k.
- unity1001 4y ago
  > proportionality seems to be working The fine is arbitrarily decided. There isnt anything solid governing the amount if the fine is not % of revenue. So it totally depends on the whim of the regulator. Which is totally in lieu of the principles of civil law that Europe uses. Its more like the common law practice in which the authority can interpret things and can act arbitrarily without solid, inviolable, democratically-made laws governing its behavior. This may look like working today. Tomorrow you may find it disproportionately hitting whichever segment or sector that the interests behind the incumbent regulatory appointees target.
  - cccbbbaaa 4y ago
    > The fine is arbitrarily decided. There isnt anything solid governing the amount if the fine is not % of revenue This is wrong. See GDPR article 83, and https://edpb.europa.eu/system/files/2022-05/edpb_guidelines_042022_calculationofadministrativefines_en.pdf https://edpb.europa.eu/system/files/2022-05/edpb_guidelines_...
    - unity1001 4y ago
      > This is done by evaluating the classification of the infringement in the GDPR, evaluating the seriousness of the infringement in light of the circumstances of the case, and evaluating the turnover of the undertaking. The third step is the evaluation of aggravating and mitigating circumstances related to past or present behaviour of the controller/processor and increasing or decreasing the fine accordingly How is 'evaluation' done and who does the 'evaluating' you think... There is no solid legal directive defined in GDPR regarding static amounts. They hinge on on the regulators' interpretations.
      - cccbbbaaa 4y ago
        Thankfully, there is still 38 pages left after that quote. You will have a hard time finding a flowchart in a law though… Anyway, my point was that the fines dispensed nowadays are sensible. As for the future, DPAs know very well that the instant they go rogue, ie. distribute disproportionate fines or misinterpret the law, their decisions will be reversed by an appeal court. It already happened, in fact. edit: I just read this on the website of my govt: > The court that sentences the offender is free to set the amount of the fine, but not to exceed the maximum amount set for that offence. Turns out judges here have even more leeway than my DPA! The finepocalypse should come any day from now. And don't get me started on courts of assizes.

redeeman 4y ago

i can say with quite some confidence that huge companies in europe do not get the same level of scrutiny from the tax department as some regular joe does. They will come after the little guy with the full force of the state, with their lackeys wearing a pistol belt, and you had better comply, or else. Meanwhile they dont have resources to perform audits on the big guys