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I can totally imagine they're using Tor for some undercover (foreign) operations or similar. I don't think the US Government with all its branches is known to p

I can totally imagine they're using Tor for some undercover (foreign) operations or similar. I don't think the US Government with all its branches is known to practise exactly what it preaches.

ouid 4y ago
I think what you have identified is that the US government is not, in any sense of the word, an it.
moremetadata 4y ago
[flagged]
- huggingmouth 4y ago
  > Ten years ago the US Navy invented Tor, an anonymous web browser. Now the ‘dark net’ is used to trade guns, drugs and child pornography, do its creators have any regrets? I hope they don't. I certainly wouldn't. Despite some of its glaring downsides, I firmly belive that Tor is a net positive for humanity.
- IntelMiner 4y ago
  For what it's worth, the creators of Tor have stated their philosophy around that problem. Effectively that they shouldn't be the arbiter of what people can access
- ccooffee 4y ago
  Well, parts of the US government engage in arms trafficking and drug trafficking (sometimes at the same time, as in Iran-Contra). I hope they don't do CSAM trafficking or human trafficking, but I wouldn't be surprised at the least.
  - MSFT_Edging 4y ago
    That's what the mercenaries... er contractors are for. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DynCorp#Sex_trafficking_of_children_in_Bosnia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DynCorp#Sex_trafficking_of_chi...
- wkat4242 4y ago
  Its creators can't be blamed for this. Just like we don't blame the post office for circulating CSAM and drugs. Unfortunately you can't have near-absolute privacy without some people abusing it. This is just a given. And if the US hadn't supplied tor, the bad actors would have used i2p or invented their own. By supplying the tech at least they have some measure of visibility.
  - notch898a 4y ago
    People here are overwhelmingly against privacy when it enables criminals to hide. Almost every crypto thread is dominated by concerns about KYC and AML.
    - wkat4242 4y ago
      I don't think so? For example signal's decision to leave the UK if they mandate a back door was very well received here.
      - notch898a 4y ago
        The dichotomy indicates that isn't the fundamental principle driving it.
        yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
        Or, possibly, that there is more than one person on HN, and some people might have slightly different opinions.
        JohnFen 4y ago
        Or, possibly, that some people don't agree that cryptocurrency shares the same fundamental principle. Cryptocurrency isn't actually that anonymous and certainly isn't private, after all. Or that people have objections to it on completely different grounds, not on anonymity/privacy grounds. Plus, what yjftsjthsd-h said. There are many reasons why what you perceive as an inconsistency may not, in fact, be.
- gptgpp 4y ago
  Fifty odd years ago, the Advanced Research Projects Agency of the US Department of Defense invented a major portion of the internet's foundation: ARPANET. Now, the internet is used to shitpost en masse, and serve porn and cat photos to billions across the globe, do its creators have any regrets? I think the ethics of the US is on display for all!!! lol.
- codetrotter 4y ago
  You say that like drug trade was a bad thing.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- hasseldahoff 4y ago
  [dead]
- rascul 4y ago
  > Ten years ago the US Navy invented Tor, an anonymous web browser. First release of Tor was in 2002 but it was started in the mid '90s according to Wikipedia. The Tor Browser was initially released by the Tor project, not the US Navy, in 2008. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tor_(network) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tor_(network)
  - red-iron-pine 4y ago
    The browser was a community project. The onion routing framework was a naval research lab thing.
    - rascul 4y ago
      > The browser was a community project. Yes, the Tor Project as I mentioned. Or, it's theirs now, anyway. I'm not sure if the original creator was affiliated with the Tor Project at the time. But it wasn't the Navy. > The onion routing framework was a naval research lab thing. I didn't mean to dispute that, but after reading my comment I wasn't clear. It was a few years after the Navy released it that the Tor Project became an official entity. I was mostly disputing the erroneous statement that the US Navy released the Tor Browser 10 years ago.
wkat4242 4y ago
Of course, this is basically why they invented it in the first place.
- wongarsu 4y ago
  And why they open sourced it. All the fancy onion routing would be useless if the fact that you use it already identified you as a CIA spy. They need other people to use it as well for TOR to be useful to them.
tablespoon 4y ago
> I can totally imagine they're using Tor for some undercover (foreign) operations or similar. I don't think the US Government with all its branches is known to practise exactly what it preaches. The US government has different parts with different goals: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2013/10/05/the-nsa-is-trying-to-crack-tor-the-state-department-is-helping-pay-for-it/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2013/10/05... (paywalled). IIRC, the NSA has interests in conducting surveillance, and the State Department has interests in allowing liberal foreign dissidents to defeat surveillance.
- godelski 4y ago
  Ironically meaning that the gov does the cat and mouse game with itself. Self-reinforcement learning. Quite an effective optimization method if we're being honest.

I can totally imagine they're using Tor for some undercover (foreign) operations or similar. I don't think the US Government with all its branches is known to practise exactly what it preaches.

ouid 4y ago

I think what you have identified is that the US government is not, in any sense of the word, an it.

moremetadata 4y ago

[flagged]

huggingmouth 4y ago
> Ten years ago the US Navy invented Tor, an anonymous web browser. Now the ‘dark net’ is used to trade guns, drugs and child pornography, do its creators have any regrets? I hope they don't. I certainly wouldn't. Despite some of its glaring downsides, I firmly belive that Tor is a net positive for humanity.
IntelMiner 4y ago
For what it's worth, the creators of Tor have stated their philosophy around that problem. Effectively that they shouldn't be the arbiter of what people can access
ccooffee 4y ago
Well, parts of the US government engage in arms trafficking and drug trafficking (sometimes at the same time, as in Iran-Contra). I hope they don't do CSAM trafficking or human trafficking, but I wouldn't be surprised at the least.
- MSFT_Edging 4y ago
  That's what the mercenaries... er contractors are for. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DynCorp#Sex_trafficking_of_children_in_Bosnia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DynCorp#Sex_trafficking_of_chi...
wkat4242 4y ago
Its creators can't be blamed for this. Just like we don't blame the post office for circulating CSAM and drugs. Unfortunately you can't have near-absolute privacy without some people abusing it. This is just a given. And if the US hadn't supplied tor, the bad actors would have used i2p or invented their own. By supplying the tech at least they have some measure of visibility.
- notch898a 4y ago
  People here are overwhelmingly against privacy when it enables criminals to hide. Almost every crypto thread is dominated by concerns about KYC and AML.
  - wkat4242 4y ago
    I don't think so? For example signal's decision to leave the UK if they mandate a back door was very well received here.
    - notch898a 4y ago
      The dichotomy indicates that isn't the fundamental principle driving it.
      - yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
        Or, possibly, that there is more than one person on HN, and some people might have slightly different opinions.
      - JohnFen 4y ago
        Or, possibly, that some people don't agree that cryptocurrency shares the same fundamental principle. Cryptocurrency isn't actually that anonymous and certainly isn't private, after all. Or that people have objections to it on completely different grounds, not on anonymity/privacy grounds. Plus, what yjftsjthsd-h said. There are many reasons why what you perceive as an inconsistency may not, in fact, be.
gptgpp 4y ago
Fifty odd years ago, the Advanced Research Projects Agency of the US Department of Defense invented a major portion of the internet's foundation: ARPANET. Now, the internet is used to shitpost en masse, and serve porn and cat photos to billions across the globe, do its creators have any regrets? I think the ethics of the US is on display for all!!! lol.
codetrotter 4y ago
You say that like drug trade was a bad thing.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
hasseldahoff 4y ago
[dead]
rascul 4y ago
> Ten years ago the US Navy invented Tor, an anonymous web browser. First release of Tor was in 2002 but it was started in the mid '90s according to Wikipedia. The Tor Browser was initially released by the Tor project, not the US Navy, in 2008. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tor_(network) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tor_(network)
- red-iron-pine 4y ago
  The browser was a community project. The onion routing framework was a naval research lab thing.
  - rascul 4y ago
    > The browser was a community project. Yes, the Tor Project as I mentioned. Or, it's theirs now, anyway. I'm not sure if the original creator was affiliated with the Tor Project at the time. But it wasn't the Navy. > The onion routing framework was a naval research lab thing. I didn't mean to dispute that, but after reading my comment I wasn't clear. It was a few years after the Navy released it that the Tor Project became an official entity. I was mostly disputing the erroneous statement that the US Navy released the Tor Browser 10 years ago.

wkat4242 4y ago

Of course, this is basically why they invented it in the first place.

wongarsu 4y ago
And why they open sourced it. All the fancy onion routing would be useless if the fact that you use it already identified you as a CIA spy. They need other people to use it as well for TOR to be useful to them.

tablespoon 4y ago

> I can totally imagine they're using Tor for some undercover (foreign) operations or similar. I don't think the US Government with all its branches is known to practise exactly what it preaches. The US government has different parts with different goals: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2013/10/05/the-nsa-is-trying-to-crack-tor-the-state-department-is-helping-pay-for-it/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2013/10/05... (paywalled). IIRC, the NSA has interests in conducting surveillance, and the State Department has interests in allowing liberal foreign dissidents to defeat surveillance.

godelski 4y ago
Ironically meaning that the gov does the cat and mouse game with itself. Self-reinforcement learning. Quite an effective optimization method if we're being honest.