3 ms·

1) No offense intended and nothing against the quality of the writing in the comment here, but I can't quite tell if your comment is written by a bot because it

1) No offense intended and nothing against the quality of the writing in the comment here, but I can't quite tell if your comment is written by a bot because it just seems to default to such generic phrases. 2) Please note that I didn't suggest selling a loved one's body for experimentation: I suggested that an individual has the right to choose what happens with their own body. That is an extremely important distinction in this matter. 3) I don't see how a poor family having the option of a financial windfall when they're losing their family breadwinner does anything but alleviate whatever "systemic inequalities" might exist. If somebody is dying either way, isn't their family having some money putting them in a better situation for their future than having no money? You can still disagree with the ethics of this of course, but just as far as the financial situation, I cannot understand any logic that says that a family is financially better off with no money rather than money.

kevviiinn 4y ago
Maybe exploitation of the vulnerable just isn't apparent to someone so logical You seem to view everything through the lens of money and nothing else, you don't consider the externalities of having a system where capital owners can further exploit those in precarious situations and you don't seem to understand that that creates incredibly perverse incentives
- logicalmonster 4y ago
  1) Nice banter, but I still don't see how a guarantee of no money is a better outcome for vulnerable people than a choice of having money. Why are people called vulnerable in the first place? It's usually because they have no money. I think it's good for them to have the choice of having some. 2) We might use slightly different language, but we're both viewing reality through a lens of money, because that's an important part of life. The difference is that I'm trying to think of a system that might be able to help some people, while all everybody who is opposed to this is able to provide is an impression of moral superiority. 3) Please explain the perverse incentives that exist in this arc of a story. Say that a father is painfully dying of cancer and is completely broke. He's very soon going to leave his wife and kids alone without even enough money to bury him, let alone live afterwards. If he had an opportunity for some cash for some medical tests to give his family a chance afterwards, isn't this a better situation for them than not having this option? 4) I'm sure we both wish there were some different systems for living and helping people. But really as a practical matter, I'm thinking through a lens of families that lose the breadwinner. Without both money and guidance, the kids can sometimes have their entire lives spiral out of control. I've known some families that lost the working father at a very young age. It takes a substantial support network for the children to not become degenerate twerps in this case. Money would help these survivors' lives immensely more than having nothing. 5) Speaking of incentives, one of the worst conceivable effects on society comes from not recognizing the absolute sovereignty of an individual. This is how we get the war on drugs which features all kinds of horrific things (throwing people in cages, gang violence, and many more troubling things), which IMO have an impact that should be far more shocking to the conscience than anything you can imagine with some rich guy paying a dying guy to do legitimate medical research that, oh yeah, might also be able to advance the state of the world significantly.
  - kevviiinn 4y ago
    You seem to miss the forest for the trees
    - logicalmonster 4y ago
      Ok then. But one probably shouldn't pretend to be the park ranger if they're not capable of showing somebody where the forest is.
      - kevviiinn 4y ago
        I don't think it matters because you continuously hyper focus on the situation of the individual and repeat your arguments as if you've said something effective Capitalism is a system in which workers are exploited and have the value they produce extracted by capital owners who provide no value. We have a system which exploits those who have no choice but to work for low pay high risk jobs. Capital owners already have captured the regulatory mechanisms which are supposedly intended to protect workers and consumers. If you allow someone to sell themselves for experimentation when they're dying, the people who already have incredible influence over workers and their conditions along with regulatory mechanisms intended to keep people safe you now provide an incredibly perverse incentive for capital owners who want experimental subjects to ensure that conditions for workers and consumers are unsafe as possible while continuing to suppress wages. There are far better ways to help workers who may be in dire straits but that requires making systemic changes instead of focusing on some gain for one individual. It's the same reason why charity is a bad mechanism for actual change

kevviiinn 4y ago

Maybe exploitation of the vulnerable just isn't apparent to someone so logical You seem to view everything through the lens of money and nothing else, you don't consider the externalities of having a system where capital owners can further exploit those in precarious situations and you don't seem to understand that that creates incredibly perverse incentives

logicalmonster 4y ago
1) Nice banter, but I still don't see how a guarantee of no money is a better outcome for vulnerable people than a choice of having money. Why are people called vulnerable in the first place? It's usually because they have no money. I think it's good for them to have the choice of having some. 2) We might use slightly different language, but we're both viewing reality through a lens of money, because that's an important part of life. The difference is that I'm trying to think of a system that might be able to help some people, while all everybody who is opposed to this is able to provide is an impression of moral superiority. 3) Please explain the perverse incentives that exist in this arc of a story. Say that a father is painfully dying of cancer and is completely broke. He's very soon going to leave his wife and kids alone without even enough money to bury him, let alone live afterwards. If he had an opportunity for some cash for some medical tests to give his family a chance afterwards, isn't this a better situation for them than not having this option? 4) I'm sure we both wish there were some different systems for living and helping people. But really as a practical matter, I'm thinking through a lens of families that lose the breadwinner. Without both money and guidance, the kids can sometimes have their entire lives spiral out of control. I've known some families that lost the working father at a very young age. It takes a substantial support network for the children to not become degenerate twerps in this case. Money would help these survivors' lives immensely more than having nothing. 5) Speaking of incentives, one of the worst conceivable effects on society comes from not recognizing the absolute sovereignty of an individual. This is how we get the war on drugs which features all kinds of horrific things (throwing people in cages, gang violence, and many more troubling things), which IMO have an impact that should be far more shocking to the conscience than anything you can imagine with some rich guy paying a dying guy to do legitimate medical research that, oh yeah, might also be able to advance the state of the world significantly.
- kevviiinn 4y ago
  You seem to miss the forest for the trees
  - logicalmonster 4y ago
    Ok then. But one probably shouldn't pretend to be the park ranger if they're not capable of showing somebody where the forest is.
    - kevviiinn 4y ago
      I don't think it matters because you continuously hyper focus on the situation of the individual and repeat your arguments as if you've said something effective Capitalism is a system in which workers are exploited and have the value they produce extracted by capital owners who provide no value. We have a system which exploits those who have no choice but to work for low pay high risk jobs. Capital owners already have captured the regulatory mechanisms which are supposedly intended to protect workers and consumers. If you allow someone to sell themselves for experimentation when they're dying, the people who already have incredible influence over workers and their conditions along with regulatory mechanisms intended to keep people safe you now provide an incredibly perverse incentive for capital owners who want experimental subjects to ensure that conditions for workers and consumers are unsafe as possible while continuing to suppress wages. There are far better ways to help workers who may be in dire straits but that requires making systemic changes instead of focusing on some gain for one individual. It's the same reason why charity is a bad mechanism for actual change