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The American Revolution was bankrolled by interested parties in Europe. That doesn't make its ideals and achievements less valid.

by toyg 4y ago

pphysch 4y ago
What ideals and achievements?
- celu 4y ago
  Democracy
  - pphysch 4y ago
    USA isn't a democracy, it's a republic. And "the people" was defined to exclude native Americans, people with dark skin, poors, etc. Altogether a very weak flavor of "democracy".
    - 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
      https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/11/yes-constitution-democracy/616949/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/11/yes-consti... > There is some truth to this insistence. But it is mostly disingenuous. The Constitution was meant to foster a complex form of majority rule, not enable minority rule. Forming the United States also took a lot of compromise. If nobody was willing to budge on these archaic issues we wouldn't be here today. It doesn't change the vision that all men are created equal and entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
      - pphysch 4y ago
        Nor does it change the fact that the USA has been violating that vision since day 1, and despite some moments of light, hasn't stopped.
twelve40 4y ago
yeah like an example from centuries ago a world away is relevant. Situation in Syria or "democratic" Iraq is probably more illustrative of what's in store for them.
- toyg 4y ago
  > yeah like an example from centuries ago a world away is relevant. "I don't like where this is going so I'll just arbitrarily disqualify the line of argument even though it's logically valid." > Situation in Syria or "democratic" Iraq is probably more illustrative Cynicism is a hinder to progress. Reality is messy, but if we tell people to stop aspiring, things can only get worse. Tunisia after the revolution has had its problems but it's still freer than it was, for example; same for Algeria. Chances are even going from a theocracy to a secular dictatorship on the Egyptian model, for example, would be a significant step forward.

The American Revolution was bankrolled by interested parties in Europe. That doesn't make its ideals and achievements less valid.

by toyg 4y ago

The American Revolution was bankrolled by interested parties in Europe. That doesn't make its ideals and achievements less valid.

pphysch 4y ago

What ideals and achievements?

celu 4y ago
Democracy
- pphysch 4y ago
  USA isn't a democracy, it's a republic. And "the people" was defined to exclude native Americans, people with dark skin, poors, etc. Altogether a very weak flavor of "democracy".
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/11/yes-constitution-democracy/616949/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/11/yes-consti... > There is some truth to this insistence. But it is mostly disingenuous. The Constitution was meant to foster a complex form of majority rule, not enable minority rule. Forming the United States also took a lot of compromise. If nobody was willing to budge on these archaic issues we wouldn't be here today. It doesn't change the vision that all men are created equal and entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
    - pphysch 4y ago
      Nor does it change the fact that the USA has been violating that vision since day 1, and despite some moments of light, hasn't stopped.

twelve40 4y ago

yeah like an example from centuries ago a world away is relevant. Situation in Syria or "democratic" Iraq is probably more illustrative of what's in store for them.

toyg 4y ago
> yeah like an example from centuries ago a world away is relevant. "I don't like where this is going so I'll just arbitrarily disqualify the line of argument even though it's logically valid." > Situation in Syria or "democratic" Iraq is probably more illustrative Cynicism is a hinder to progress. Reality is messy, but if we tell people to stop aspiring, things can only get worse. Tunisia after the revolution has had its problems but it's still freer than it was, for example; same for Algeria. Chances are even going from a theocracy to a secular dictatorship on the Egyptian model, for example, would be a significant step forward.