7 ms·

Background: the original Lena picture comes from the Playboy Magazine, and the model doesn't want people to use it. https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/it-

Background: the original Lena picture comes from the Playboy Magazine, and the model doesn't want people to use it. https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/it-s-time-to-retire-lena-from-computer-science https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/it-s-time-to-retire-...

zokula 4y ago
[dead]
seventytwo 4y ago
Didn’t realize the model doesn’t want people using it. That holds more weight in my mind than the fact that it was in playboy.
- iamflimflam1 4y ago
  Yes, this definitely changes things. Previously the model didn't seem to be bothered and seemed to find it all quite amusing. People change their minds and we should respect their wishes.
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    > People change their minds and we should respect their wishes. When you sign a contract that says "in return for a bunch of money, you agree that other people can use this picture of you", you shouldn't get to keep the money but change your mind about the picture.
    - iamflimflam1 4y ago
      Strictly speaking, she was paid money by playboy to appear in playboy - not to appear in the many research publications that have carried the image. None of the researchers using the image had permission to use it nor did the journals that published the papers. Playboy did decide in the end to look the other way as it was good publicity.
- benj111 4y ago
  Really? Presumably she was paid. I don't know what the copyright situation is, but assuming she doesn't hold that I don't know what the issue is. Isn't it like trump objecting to images of his in court accompanying a news item?
  - Version467 4y ago
    That she likely has no legal recourse does not mean that developers and researchers cannot respect her wishes. It's not like this specific image has an inherent property that somehow makes it the superior test image.
    - jerf 4y ago
      To me, that's the real kicker; there's absolutely no cost whatsoever to respecting the wishes. If anything, it's not a great image; the standard scan is a bit washed out and doesn't have a full color range. (I can't speak to whether this is a characteristic of the scan, which is now from a very old scanner, or the original image, having never seen the original in print.) No one test image can capture everything an image algorithm might want to test, but more full use of available colors would probably still be advantageous.
    - benj111 4y ago
      >It's not like this specific image has an inherent property that somehow makes it the superior test image. Surely that fact that it is the standard test image makes it a superior image. If there's a format that I can't reproduce, there's a good chance there's an image of Lena to compare against.
  - vidarh 4y ago
    Do you not see the difference between the issue of whether it can legally be used, and the issue of whether or not it's nice to keep using it when the person involved would prefer it not be? She, like Trump, is entitled to her opinion. And sometimes people want to respect people's opinions, sometimes not.
- enriquto 4y ago
  It's not so clear that she doesn't want people to use that image. She has assisted several times at image processing conferences, and has stated recently that she was proud of the fact that so many people used that photo. The documentary linked above shows footage of herself talking about the photo, but she never really says people should not use it. The website hosting the documentary has several heavily editorialized quotations that suggest that. That said, this new "lennart" is hilarious and I would like to use it instead of the original one. EDIT: here's a 2019 interview where she appears to pose with the same hat again : https://www.wired.com/story/finding-lena-the-patron-saint-of-jpegs/ https://www.wired.com/story/finding-lena-the-patron-saint-of...
  - pseudalopex 4y ago
    “I retired from modelling a long time ago. It’s time I retired from tech, too. We can make a simple change today that creates a lasting change for tomorrow. Let’s commit to losing me.” She can be proud of her work and not want it used where it makes other people uncomfortable.
- sorenjan 4y ago
  It's not really up to models to decide what their pictures gets used for though. Why should this be different? From what I gather it's not because she's uncomfortable with it being used, it's because of controversy other people have drummed up: > When I asked her if she had heard anything about the recent controversy around her image, she seemed alarmed at the thought that she could have a part in hurting or discouraging young women. I sent her some articles about the Lenna and later gave her a call to see what she made of them. The photo, she said, doesn’t show very much—just down to her shoulders—so it was hard for her to see what the big deal was. https://www.wired.com/story/finding-lena-the-patron-saint-of-jpegs/ https://www.wired.com/story/finding-lena-the-patron-saint-of... Not that it really matters that much, it's a historical curiosity by now.
  - vidarh 4y ago
    She doesn't have any way to force people to stop, but that doesn't mean people can't take her opinion into account.
    - sorenjan 4y ago
      Her opinion doesn't seem to match the articles claim: > Lena doesn’t harbor any resentment toward Sawchuk and his imitators for how they appropriated her image; the only note of regret she expressed was that she wasn’t better compensated. In her view, the photograph is an immense accomplishment that just happened to take on a life of its own. “I’m really proud of that picture,” she said.
      - pseudalopex 4y ago
        “I retired from modelling a long time ago. It’s time I retired from tech, too. We can make a simple change today that creates a lasting change for tomorrow. Let’s commit to losing me.”[1] Being proud of her work doesn't mean she thinks people should have to see it in their work. [1] https://www.thedrum.com/news/2019/11/19/gender-equality-ad-calls-time-playboy-model-lena-image-led-jpeg-invention https://www.thedrum.com/news/2019/11/19/gender-equality-ad-c...
  - 4y ago
- Findecanor 4y ago
  ... And here I had tracked down her address and was about to mail her a print-out, with a request to ask her to sign it. I had been planning to display it in a glass cabinet next to my Melitta teapot and Luxo jr lamp and ball. (and if anyone has a lead on a terracotta rabbit, please let me know ;)
shultays 4y ago
Huh, I remember reading about her finding it interesting, even attending one image processing conference as a guest, but maybe I misremembering? edit: apparently she changed her mind later
- jtriangle 4y ago
  She was championed up until a few years ago as the "Queen of JPEG", and was fairly active in that community. Rightly so too, it's an image of her, but, more importantly, that image is very difficult to compress efficiently and maintain acceptable quality. There are other images that could have been used, but, an image of her was used, and she enjoyed the celebrity from that until recently. She is allowed, of course, to change her mind, much as the rest of the world is allowed to consider her past behavior when deciding how they respond to her changing her mind.
logimus 4y ago
Really some computer vision guy told she was at some conference to give out signatures.
- sorenjan 4y ago
  In 1997 and 2015. From the picture's Wikipedia: Lenna is so widely accepted in the image processing community that Forsén was a guest at the 50th annual Conference of the Society for Imaging Science and Technology (IS&T) in 1997.[18] In 2015, Lena Forsén was also guest of honor at the banquet of IEEE ICIP 2015.[19] After delivering a speech, she chaired the best paper award ceremony. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenna
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
dsr_ 4y ago
The more personal an artifact is, the more I think the subject's wishes should be taken into account. https://qntm.org/mmacevedo https://qntm.org/mmacevedo is a much more in-depth examination...
- mytailorisrich 4y ago
  The model in question posed for nude pictures in Playboy... The whole 'controversy' is pure spin in an age when everything has to be controversial.
  - CharlesW 4y ago
    > The model in question posed for nude pictures in Playboy... This is the problem. You're implying it's okay because she asked for it, when the unlicensed reproduction of Disney IP would be treated very differently.
    - mytailorisrich 4y ago
      Well the copyright holder may indeed have something to say about it. But I have a hard time believing that there is anything morally wrong with using a cropped version of such picture for technical and scientific research... that's just looking for controversy where there is none.
josephcsible 4y ago
Contrast that case with this one: https://www.boredpanda.com/unflattering-donald-trump-chin-photo-ps-battle/ https://www.boredpanda.com/unflattering-donald-trump-chin-ph... Why is it that in the former, everyone says you're a horrible person who deserves to be cancelled if you ignore the subject's wishes to not use the picture, but in the latter, everyone says it's a great thing if you ignore the subject's wishes to not use the picture?
- raincole 4y ago
  Correct answer: because one is politican and the other isn't Real answer: because people have double, triple, multiple standards.
- Steltek 4y ago
  Because ridiculing world leaders is essential to liberty and free exercise of democracy? Especially POTUS, which is arguably the top of the heap. You don't need to agree, believe it has any merit, or anything like that. It's more important that the right exists than how it's used.
- abofh 4y ago
  Exceeding scope; I took your picture and used it in an ad campaign, I exceeded scope. I took your picture as president of a country and used it in a blog, I didn't. This is a trivial discussion, but that's your answer
- smcl 4y ago
  Lena has been used for years and this use doesn't necessarily result in you being "cancelled", it might make your colleagues say "hey, can you use something other than lena?" though. The model is a pretty private figure (as she said, she’s not a model anymore) and has not given us any reason not to respect her wishes, so if she has asked the community not to then it's only decent to refrain from using her picture. Trump is an extremely controversial person who has stirred up no end of trouble and in addition he has directed more than his own fair share of bodyshaming towards others. It does not surprise me in the slightest that people are not willing to extend him the courtesy of not sharing a picture of him that he doesn't like. I'm not in the business of using or distributing these pictures, so I am quite happy not using either. I'm just attempting to explain why people feel this way. I personally quite like the Ethically Sourced Lena, it made me smile :)
rom-antics 4y ago
That article doesn't support the headline. The closest it gets is saying nobody asked her beforehand, but she doesn't say after the fact that she wants people to stop. Meanwhile, from the people who actually bothered to talk to her[1]: > In her view, the photograph is an immense accomplishment that just happened to take on a life of its own. “I’m really proud of that picture,” she said. This whole situation reminds me of GitHub, Fuck Your Name Change[2]. People want to drum up outrage and don't care one bit about the people involved. Is it really worth erasing a piece of computing history because of some kids virtue signaling about a picture that was taken before they were born? [1]: https://www.wired.com/story/finding-lena-the-patron-saint-of-jpegs/ https://www.wired.com/story/finding-lena-the-patron-saint-of... [2]: https://mooseyanon.medium.com/github-f-ck-your-name-change-de599033bbbe https://mooseyanon.medium.com/github-f-ck-your-name-change-d...
- iameli 4y ago
  Did you watch the video? She said that she would like to retire from having her picture used in this way.
  - rom-antics 4y ago
    I don't see a video in either article. Link?
nemo44x 4y ago
Is Playboy exploitive or empowering today? I can't keep up.
- pseudalopex 4y ago
  Every day is the day when people have individual opinions. And those opinions can be more complex than good or bad.
  - nemo44x 4y ago
    Sure, but what’s the correct opinion right now?

zokula 4y ago

[dead]

seventytwo 4y ago

Didn’t realize the model doesn’t want people using it. That holds more weight in my mind than the fact that it was in playboy.

iamflimflam1 4y ago
Yes, this definitely changes things. Previously the model didn't seem to be bothered and seemed to find it all quite amusing. People change their minds and we should respect their wishes.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  > People change their minds and we should respect their wishes. When you sign a contract that says "in return for a bunch of money, you agree that other people can use this picture of you", you shouldn't get to keep the money but change your mind about the picture.
  - iamflimflam1 4y ago
    Strictly speaking, she was paid money by playboy to appear in playboy - not to appear in the many research publications that have carried the image. None of the researchers using the image had permission to use it nor did the journals that published the papers. Playboy did decide in the end to look the other way as it was good publicity.
benj111 4y ago
Really? Presumably she was paid. I don't know what the copyright situation is, but assuming she doesn't hold that I don't know what the issue is. Isn't it like trump objecting to images of his in court accompanying a news item?
- Version467 4y ago
  That she likely has no legal recourse does not mean that developers and researchers cannot respect her wishes. It's not like this specific image has an inherent property that somehow makes it the superior test image.
  - jerf 4y ago
    To me, that's the real kicker; there's absolutely no cost whatsoever to respecting the wishes. If anything, it's not a great image; the standard scan is a bit washed out and doesn't have a full color range. (I can't speak to whether this is a characteristic of the scan, which is now from a very old scanner, or the original image, having never seen the original in print.) No one test image can capture everything an image algorithm might want to test, but more full use of available colors would probably still be advantageous.
  - benj111 4y ago
    >It's not like this specific image has an inherent property that somehow makes it the superior test image. Surely that fact that it is the standard test image makes it a superior image. If there's a format that I can't reproduce, there's a good chance there's an image of Lena to compare against.
- vidarh 4y ago
  Do you not see the difference between the issue of whether it can legally be used, and the issue of whether or not it's nice to keep using it when the person involved would prefer it not be? She, like Trump, is entitled to her opinion. And sometimes people want to respect people's opinions, sometimes not.
enriquto 4y ago
It's not so clear that she doesn't want people to use that image. She has assisted several times at image processing conferences, and has stated recently that she was proud of the fact that so many people used that photo. The documentary linked above shows footage of herself talking about the photo, but she never really says people should not use it. The website hosting the documentary has several heavily editorialized quotations that suggest that. That said, this new "lennart" is hilarious and I would like to use it instead of the original one. EDIT: here's a 2019 interview where she appears to pose with the same hat again : https://www.wired.com/story/finding-lena-the-patron-saint-of-jpegs/ https://www.wired.com/story/finding-lena-the-patron-saint-of...
- pseudalopex 4y ago
  “I retired from modelling a long time ago. It’s time I retired from tech, too. We can make a simple change today that creates a lasting change for tomorrow. Let’s commit to losing me.” She can be proud of her work and not want it used where it makes other people uncomfortable.
sorenjan 4y ago
It's not really up to models to decide what their pictures gets used for though. Why should this be different? From what I gather it's not because she's uncomfortable with it being used, it's because of controversy other people have drummed up: > When I asked her if she had heard anything about the recent controversy around her image, she seemed alarmed at the thought that she could have a part in hurting or discouraging young women. I sent her some articles about the Lenna and later gave her a call to see what she made of them. The photo, she said, doesn’t show very much—just down to her shoulders—so it was hard for her to see what the big deal was. https://www.wired.com/story/finding-lena-the-patron-saint-of-jpegs/ https://www.wired.com/story/finding-lena-the-patron-saint-of... Not that it really matters that much, it's a historical curiosity by now.
- vidarh 4y ago
  She doesn't have any way to force people to stop, but that doesn't mean people can't take her opinion into account.
  - sorenjan 4y ago
    Her opinion doesn't seem to match the articles claim: > Lena doesn’t harbor any resentment toward Sawchuk and his imitators for how they appropriated her image; the only note of regret she expressed was that she wasn’t better compensated. In her view, the photograph is an immense accomplishment that just happened to take on a life of its own. “I’m really proud of that picture,” she said.
    - pseudalopex 4y ago
      “I retired from modelling a long time ago. It’s time I retired from tech, too. We can make a simple change today that creates a lasting change for tomorrow. Let’s commit to losing me.”[1] Being proud of her work doesn't mean she thinks people should have to see it in their work. [1] https://www.thedrum.com/news/2019/11/19/gender-equality-ad-calls-time-playboy-model-lena-image-led-jpeg-invention https://www.thedrum.com/news/2019/11/19/gender-equality-ad-c...
- 4y ago
Findecanor 4y ago
... And here I had tracked down her address and was about to mail her a print-out, with a request to ask her to sign it. I had been planning to display it in a glass cabinet next to my Melitta teapot and Luxo jr lamp and ball. (and if anyone has a lead on a terracotta rabbit, please let me know ;)

shultays 4y ago

Huh, I remember reading about her finding it interesting, even attending one image processing conference as a guest, but maybe I misremembering? edit: apparently she changed her mind later

jtriangle 4y ago
She was championed up until a few years ago as the "Queen of JPEG", and was fairly active in that community. Rightly so too, it's an image of her, but, more importantly, that image is very difficult to compress efficiently and maintain acceptable quality. There are other images that could have been used, but, an image of her was used, and she enjoyed the celebrity from that until recently. She is allowed, of course, to change her mind, much as the rest of the world is allowed to consider her past behavior when deciding how they respond to her changing her mind.

logimus 4y ago

Really some computer vision guy told she was at some conference to give out signatures.

sorenjan 4y ago
In 1997 and 2015. From the picture's Wikipedia: Lenna is so widely accepted in the image processing community that Forsén was a guest at the 50th annual Conference of the Society for Imaging Science and Technology (IS&T) in 1997.[18] In 2015, Lena Forsén was also guest of honor at the banquet of IEEE ICIP 2015.[19] After delivering a speech, she chaired the best paper award ceremony. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenna
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

dsr_ 4y ago

The more personal an artifact is, the more I think the subject's wishes should be taken into account. https://qntm.org/mmacevedo https://qntm.org/mmacevedo is a much more in-depth examination...

mytailorisrich 4y ago
The model in question posed for nude pictures in Playboy... The whole 'controversy' is pure spin in an age when everything has to be controversial.
- CharlesW 4y ago
  > The model in question posed for nude pictures in Playboy... This is the problem. You're implying it's okay because she asked for it, when the unlicensed reproduction of Disney IP would be treated very differently.
  - mytailorisrich 4y ago
    Well the copyright holder may indeed have something to say about it. But I have a hard time believing that there is anything morally wrong with using a cropped version of such picture for technical and scientific research... that's just looking for controversy where there is none.

josephcsible 4y ago

Contrast that case with this one: https://www.boredpanda.com/unflattering-donald-trump-chin-photo-ps-battle/ https://www.boredpanda.com/unflattering-donald-trump-chin-ph... Why is it that in the former, everyone says you're a horrible person who deserves to be cancelled if you ignore the subject's wishes to not use the picture, but in the latter, everyone says it's a great thing if you ignore the subject's wishes to not use the picture?

raincole 4y ago
Correct answer: because one is politican and the other isn't Real answer: because people have double, triple, multiple standards.
Steltek 4y ago
Because ridiculing world leaders is essential to liberty and free exercise of democracy? Especially POTUS, which is arguably the top of the heap. You don't need to agree, believe it has any merit, or anything like that. It's more important that the right exists than how it's used.
abofh 4y ago
Exceeding scope; I took your picture and used it in an ad campaign, I exceeded scope. I took your picture as president of a country and used it in a blog, I didn't. This is a trivial discussion, but that's your answer
smcl 4y ago
Lena has been used for years and this use doesn't necessarily result in you being "cancelled", it might make your colleagues say "hey, can you use something other than lena?" though. The model is a pretty private figure (as she said, she’s not a model anymore) and has not given us any reason not to respect her wishes, so if she has asked the community not to then it's only decent to refrain from using her picture. Trump is an extremely controversial person who has stirred up no end of trouble and in addition he has directed more than his own fair share of bodyshaming towards others. It does not surprise me in the slightest that people are not willing to extend him the courtesy of not sharing a picture of him that he doesn't like. I'm not in the business of using or distributing these pictures, so I am quite happy not using either. I'm just attempting to explain why people feel this way. I personally quite like the Ethically Sourced Lena, it made me smile :)

rom-antics 4y ago

That article doesn't support the headline. The closest it gets is saying nobody asked her beforehand, but she doesn't say after the fact that she wants people to stop. Meanwhile, from the people who actually bothered to talk to her[1]: > In her view, the photograph is an immense accomplishment that just happened to take on a life of its own. “I’m really proud of that picture,” she said. This whole situation reminds me of GitHub, Fuck Your Name Change[2]. People want to drum up outrage and don't care one bit about the people involved. Is it really worth erasing a piece of computing history because of some kids virtue signaling about a picture that was taken before they were born? [1]: https://www.wired.com/story/finding-lena-the-patron-saint-of-jpegs/ https://www.wired.com/story/finding-lena-the-patron-saint-of... [2]: https://mooseyanon.medium.com/github-f-ck-your-name-change-de599033bbbe https://mooseyanon.medium.com/github-f-ck-your-name-change-d...

iameli 4y ago
Did you watch the video? She said that she would like to retire from having her picture used in this way.
- rom-antics 4y ago
  I don't see a video in either article. Link?

nemo44x 4y ago

Is Playboy exploitive or empowering today? I can't keep up.

pseudalopex 4y ago
Every day is the day when people have individual opinions. And those opinions can be more complex than good or bad.
- nemo44x 4y ago
  Sure, but what’s the correct opinion right now?