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> Influence is not causality. Yes it is, it just isn't very direct because the system we're trying to influence is very complicated. It's like the weather. We

> Influence is not causality. Yes it is, it just isn't very direct because the system we're trying to influence is very complicated. It's like the weather. We can influence the weather with things like cloud seeding, but it is a complex system so it is difficult to make precise predictions about. Introducing selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors in the brain is similar. If you are arguing it is not, then you are again arguing a matter of degree. We understand how rivers flow well enough to be able to change that, but all that's missing from doing the same to weather, or the brain, is sufficient understanding of the system. > Are you familiar with the idea of 'self control'? Yes, probably much more so than you are since I've struggled with a food addiction my entire life and have managed to lose half my body weight at one point. Of course you think you are in control, the same way a nematode might believe it is in control, but since we can simulate the entire brain of a nematode on a computer we know that the control is an illusion and the nematode brain is a system reacting to its environment in a complex way. Our brains are the same, they're just much much larger and more complex. Not being able to simulate them on a computer yet does not in any way suggest that this is impossible.

eternalban 4y ago
All you have said is reducible to 'nothing has agency'. Regardless of what is the true nature of consciousness, the fact remains that you are capable of self control and to assert that "rivers are just like humans" is rather silly unless you either put forward the thought ending idea that "it's just a big complex machine and we're cogs in it regardless of illusions of choice" or "consciousness is just a matter of degrees removed from what's happening with a river because determinism", ignoring the fact we still have managed a patchwork of models to explain reality and have to date failed to have a unified model of reality. I am entirely open to the thought that n centuries from now our models may look as quaint as the earth centric cosmology of the ancients. Minds are a phenomena that are not understood and the proposition that it is an emegent chimera is neither satisfying nor convincing. At least for me. ymmv.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
  > All you have said is reducible to 'nothing has agency'. That's one valid interpretation, yes. We don't choose our genetic makeup, which determines (along with environmental factors) the structure of our brain, and therefore also our mind. Another valid interpretation is the one we're discussing: that humans are not a special case and that all complex systems can be said to have agency, even if we are not able to recognize it as such.
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eternalban 4y ago

All you have said is reducible to 'nothing has agency'. Regardless of what is the true nature of consciousness, the fact remains that you are capable of self control and to assert that "rivers are just like humans" is rather silly unless you either put forward the thought ending idea that "it's just a big complex machine and we're cogs in it regardless of illusions of choice" or "consciousness is just a matter of degrees removed from what's happening with a river because determinism", ignoring the fact we still have managed a patchwork of models to explain reality and have to date failed to have a unified model of reality. I am entirely open to the thought that n centuries from now our models may look as quaint as the earth centric cosmology of the ancients. Minds are a phenomena that are not understood and the proposition that it is an emegent chimera is neither satisfying nor convincing. At least for me. ymmv.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
> All you have said is reducible to 'nothing has agency'. That's one valid interpretation, yes. We don't choose our genetic makeup, which determines (along with environmental factors) the structure of our brain, and therefore also our mind. Another valid interpretation is the one we're discussing: that humans are not a special case and that all complex systems can be said to have agency, even if we are not able to recognize it as such.
- deleted 4y ago
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