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But battery research is ongoing from a century at this point, we can't possibly think that Tesla just came out of nowhere and thought a solution nobody consider

But battery research is ongoing from a century at this point, we can't possibly think that Tesla just came out of nowhere and thought a solution nobody considered before such as using less rare elements. It is most certainly a trade off and I'm not seeing where the cons are mentioned. Moreover, lithium-ion batteries have by far the most efficienty energy density, so what is tesla getting rid of, most certainly not lithium, which is the bulk of the battery.

brookst 4y ago
Tesla was founded in 2003 and I suspect they started research before last month.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
poultron 4y ago
Its not that they have some novel idea - its that they're committing to that idea at a corporate level on a massive scale. It's essentially giving us all our best shot at achieving said results. Tesla thinks they've laid out the bridges necessary to get there, and they're publicly making a claim so they can be held accountable. That is why it's a big deal.
Robotbeat 4y ago
Rare-earth-less high energy magnets have been the subject of research at the lab level for a while, funded at the university level by ARPA-E and elsewhere but which have never been commercialized. It is actually cutting edge work. Iron nitride magnets are probably the most likely candidate, and they can actually have higher energy than rare earth magnets, and have particularly good high temperature coercivity compared to Neodymium based magnets, although not quite as high coercivity at room temperatures (but high temperature may be the limiting factor in existing motors). So I don’t understand where this sad sack negativity comes from, because it most certainly doesn’t come from knowledge in the field. There are materials science improvements over time, and this is one such area. There can be a net improvement, not just a pure trade-off. Niron Magnetics is one such company trying to commercialize the material, and you can go to their location in Minneapolis and play with their iron nitride magnets if you like. Tesla did use high energy cylindrical li-ion cells in their cars before others. Sometimes things improve, through the hard work of researchers.
- richk449 4y ago
  Interesting information. It doesn’t look like Niron is selling anything yet. Is there anyone who is?
  - Robotbeat 4y ago
    As far as I can tell, no. It’s mostly a lab level endeavor, funded by federal grants (with the purpose of reducing US dependence on Chinese mineral supply chain).
uoaei 4y ago
The article doesn't say anything about batteries. Just motors.
tuatoru 4y ago
Every sentence of this is wrong. Disclaimer: I am no fanboy of Tesla; I think Tesla's lunch will be eaten by BYD, either alone or together with other Chinese EV manufacturers, in part because Tesla has been resting on its laurels for so long (still selling the model S!); but facts are facts. > But battery research is ongoing from a century... Tesla's claim is about motors, not batteries. Tesla has implemented solutions that no one else has, such as their "two casting chassis", which Toyota engineers recently called " a work of art" and "genius". The 4680 cylindrical battery is also a Tesla innovation. > It is most certainly a trade off... It is not clear at all whether this announced motor is a trade off. It may be the way ahead to further improvements in the space of EV motors. More detail would be good to have; that much is true. > Moreover, lithium-ion batteries...[lithium] is the bulk of the battery. Again, this is about motors, not batteries. It's eliminating the neodymium and other "rare earth"[1] elements used in the permanent magnets present in nearly all EV motors to date. No EV motors use lithium in significant amounts. But the numeracy nazi in me must also point out that when it comes to batteries, there is more nickel than lithium, by a considerable margin, in NMC and NCA (nickel-manganese-cobalt and nickel-cobalt-aluminum) lithium-ion batteries. There is more iron than lithium in LFP lithium batteries. And depending on construction, there may be still more copper. 1. "Earth" is a now-obsolete term for "ore". These metals are not rare, but they spread themselves around, so economically minable ore bodies tend to be hard to find. The metals are not rare, but their earths are.
- epolanski 4y ago
  You realize that my post stems not from the original news but a discussion about batteries?
- rblatz 4y ago
  What’s wrong with the model S?
- 93po 4y ago
  > I think Tesla's lunch will be eaten by BYD, either alone or together with other Chinese EV manufacturers, in part because Tesla has been resting on its laurels for so long (still selling the model S!); The tech and featues in a Tesla are far beyond what BYD is even close to delivering. BYD's growth has been nothing close to Tesla's Tesla has around four times the net income of BYD despite BYD selling three times as many cars Telsa is making industry defining changes to manufacturing that BYD hasn't even started on Telsa is deploying more than double the battery capacity as BYD Tesla is far more vertically integrated than BYD Not sure how any of this is resting on laurels or at all a sign that BYD is at risk of being a threat

brookst 4y ago

Tesla was founded in 2003 and I suspect they started research before last month.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

poultron 4y ago

Its not that they have some novel idea - its that they're committing to that idea at a corporate level on a massive scale. It's essentially giving us all our best shot at achieving said results. Tesla thinks they've laid out the bridges necessary to get there, and they're publicly making a claim so they can be held accountable. That is why it's a big deal.

Robotbeat 4y ago

Rare-earth-less high energy magnets have been the subject of research at the lab level for a while, funded at the university level by ARPA-E and elsewhere but which have never been commercialized. It is actually cutting edge work. Iron nitride magnets are probably the most likely candidate, and they can actually have higher energy than rare earth magnets, and have particularly good high temperature coercivity compared to Neodymium based magnets, although not quite as high coercivity at room temperatures (but high temperature may be the limiting factor in existing motors). So I don’t understand where this sad sack negativity comes from, because it most certainly doesn’t come from knowledge in the field. There are materials science improvements over time, and this is one such area. There can be a net improvement, not just a pure trade-off. Niron Magnetics is one such company trying to commercialize the material, and you can go to their location in Minneapolis and play with their iron nitride magnets if you like. Tesla did use high energy cylindrical li-ion cells in their cars before others. Sometimes things improve, through the hard work of researchers.

richk449 4y ago
Interesting information. It doesn’t look like Niron is selling anything yet. Is there anyone who is?
- Robotbeat 4y ago
  As far as I can tell, no. It’s mostly a lab level endeavor, funded by federal grants (with the purpose of reducing US dependence on Chinese mineral supply chain).

uoaei 4y ago

The article doesn't say anything about batteries. Just motors.

tuatoru 4y ago

Every sentence of this is wrong. Disclaimer: I am no fanboy of Tesla; I think Tesla's lunch will be eaten by BYD, either alone or together with other Chinese EV manufacturers, in part because Tesla has been resting on its laurels for so long (still selling the model S!); but facts are facts. > But battery research is ongoing from a century... Tesla's claim is about motors, not batteries. Tesla has implemented solutions that no one else has, such as their "two casting chassis", which Toyota engineers recently called " a work of art" and "genius". The 4680 cylindrical battery is also a Tesla innovation. > It is most certainly a trade off... It is not clear at all whether this announced motor is a trade off. It may be the way ahead to further improvements in the space of EV motors. More detail would be good to have; that much is true. > Moreover, lithium-ion batteries...[lithium] is the bulk of the battery. Again, this is about motors, not batteries. It's eliminating the neodymium and other "rare earth"[1] elements used in the permanent magnets present in nearly all EV motors to date. No EV motors use lithium in significant amounts. But the numeracy nazi in me must also point out that when it comes to batteries, there is more nickel than lithium, by a considerable margin, in NMC and NCA (nickel-manganese-cobalt and nickel-cobalt-aluminum) lithium-ion batteries. There is more iron than lithium in LFP lithium batteries. And depending on construction, there may be still more copper. 1. "Earth" is a now-obsolete term for "ore". These metals are not rare, but they spread themselves around, so economically minable ore bodies tend to be hard to find. The metals are not rare, but their earths are.

epolanski 4y ago
You realize that my post stems not from the original news but a discussion about batteries?
rblatz 4y ago
What’s wrong with the model S?
93po 4y ago
> I think Tesla's lunch will be eaten by BYD, either alone or together with other Chinese EV manufacturers, in part because Tesla has been resting on its laurels for so long (still selling the model S!); The tech and featues in a Tesla are far beyond what BYD is even close to delivering. BYD's growth has been nothing close to Tesla's Tesla has around four times the net income of BYD despite BYD selling three times as many cars Telsa is making industry defining changes to manufacturing that BYD hasn't even started on Telsa is deploying more than double the battery capacity as BYD Tesla is far more vertically integrated than BYD Not sure how any of this is resting on laurels or at all a sign that BYD is at risk of being a threat