5 ms·

We have externalized what used to be an internal issues Offense is a you problem, not a me problem. We have abandoned the axiom of "sticks and stones" and repl

We have externalized what used to be an internal issues Offense is a you problem, not a me problem. We have abandoned the axiom of "sticks and stones" and replaced it with "words are violence" or even worse "silence is violence" Today it no longer enough to be "tolerant" you have to actively affirm, support, and validate everything about everyone at all times and support their emotional state no matter the practicality or reality of the situation.

tsgagnon 4y ago
It feels a bit hypocritical to make this sort of proclamation on a social media site with extremely strict moderation. Almost as though this isn't as simple a topic as "stick and stones" and that everyone has different tolerances for what they'll put up with depending on the setting and context.
jraph 4y ago
> Offense is a you problem, not a me problem Most definitely not. Of course people need to work on themselves to avoid being offended. But if you communicate with other people, it's because you want to achieve something. Probably not offending the target (or else fuck you I guess ;-)). So, usually, offense gets in the way, so you should care about not offending your target. And beyond this, as human beings, we usually care not to hurt other human beings. It's a we problem. > no matter the practicality or reality of the situation. Do you have example of this? Of course you are expected to show some empathy/sympathy, but I've never seem people impose unrealistic expectations.
- nasmorn 4y ago
  I would not call anyone the N-word but would ask for a brown paper bag if I needed it at the grocery store. I have personally never met someone that is offended by the use of eg. colors as a concept but yet some people are trying to remove them from language.
  - mrguyorama 4y ago
    Nobody is saying you can't say the word brown FFS.
    - phpisthebest 4y ago
      There are entire documents in technology written to erase words White / Black List -> Allow / Deny Git "master" -> Main and about 10,000 other examples.
      - mrguyorama 4y ago
        You can name a branch master on git to your hearts content. We still have branches named master. We still have stuff we refer to as "whitelist" even though that was never an accurate descriptor for it in the first place. This shit isn't banned. Nobody stops you from using them.
        phpisthebest 4y ago
        It would be unconstitutional in the US to ban it, the question or comment thread is not about being illegal to use the word.. The issue the social pressure against these terms, and the ever changing landscape one political segment of the population has in being forever offended by everything
        strix_varius 4y ago
        It's certainly not unconstitutional for organizations to ban words. It's happening every day at major tech companies.
        phpisthebest 4y ago
        This entire comment thread should be a master class in logical fallcies as every reply shifts the goal posts back and forth.... Which i suspect is the end goal as that way no one actually have to address the underlying issues of compelled / socially enforced speech and the ongoing attacks on free expression on top of the ever shrinking mental health of the population has society coddles people into believing everyone else has to manage an individuals mental health instead of having to harden your own mind and come to terms with the fact the life is rarely fair, kind, nor do people (nor should) about your "feelings"
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  >Do you have example of this? How about the push to rename words in technology that have been in use for decades, like changing the default git repo from master to main. or the parent comment I replied to originally -- "This is what bothers me about the recent obsession with pronouns - I have enough trouble remembering people's names; and now I am also asked to remember how to modify my grammar or lexicon when in vicinity of a given person? " for which there is not even any social indicators of this, and for a given person could change at any given time from week to week or day to day. A person that changes their pronouns daily seems to me to have an unrealistic expectation that people will be able to keep track of that.
  - foldr 4y ago
    Have you come across anyone who changed their pronouns daily and expected you to keep track of it? It annoys me how often this discussion gets bogged down in weird hypothetical scenarios. In my experience, people who use nonstandard pronouns (or pronouns that you might not guess from their appearance) are completely reasonable about it. They only ask that you make a genuine effort to remember the correct pronoun choice – which is not very much to ask. It's certainly no more work than, say, remembering the correct pronunciation of their name. I might add that almost anyone will be ok with singular 'they', if you're ever unsure, as it is gender neutral.
    - prewett 4y ago
      I have met people like this. And heard someone correct someone else for using it wrong. In fact, when during introductions, this person said their pronoun so loudly that I forgot their name (partly because it made no sense to put two pronouns after a name, so it spent a lot of time trying to parse the grammar, as I had just recently moved to a very Progressive city and it was the first time I had encountered it personally). There is another group I am in that has name tags and there are stickers with pronouns I've never even heard of (something like ver/ver, xe,xer, etc.).
      - wonderwonder 4y ago
        I cant imagine ever getting to the point where I care enough what people call me to make a big deal out of it. I work with people that have been saying my name comedically wrong for months now and I couldn't care less. I have a couple other people that think my last name is my first name and call me by that. Its hilarious. Imagine getting upset or aggressive with someone just because they don't remember the pronouns you made up. That's a you problem, not a me problem. I don't know the name's of 75% of the people I work with (I work with a 100+ people a week) and I really have no time or inclination to make the effort. If someone makes up pronouns that don't correspond to their image they are going to get mad at me because I am pretty much incapable of remembering their name let alone their pronouns. If I remember, cool I will use them but I'm really not going to spend hours practicing. Its not an intentional insult, I want everyone to be happy, I just don't have the effort or inclination in me to expend on it.
lapcat 4y ago
> Offense is a you problem, not a me problem. We have abandoned the axiom of "sticks and stones" I think you miss the point of "sticks and stones". The point is not that it's ok to say whatever you want to anyone else. The point of "sticks and stones" is not to let other people bring down your self-esteem. Other people will intentionally try to denigrate you. They'll call you "stupid". They'll call you "ugly". Or they may call you a racial slur. That's all unacceptable. That's a "me" problem for the speaker. The point of "sticks and stones", on the other hand, is to resist internalizing these external insults and degradations. It's to put on a virtual suit of armor to protect you from verbal attacks — and let's be clear, they're real attacks. You don't just "accidentally" beat someone with physical sticks and stones, right? The intention is to hurt, to break their bones, as it were. That's the analogy, with intentionally hurtful words.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
skissane 4y ago
> Today it no longer enough to be "tolerant" you have to actively affirm, support, and validate everything about everyone at all times and support their emotional state no matter the practicality or reality of the situation. That’s absolutely not true though - you only have to affirm/support/validate people’s identities and emotional states when their identity/emotions aligns with the zeitgeist; if those things contradict the zeitgeist, then affirmation/support/validation is somewhere between optional and evil.

tsgagnon 4y ago

It feels a bit hypocritical to make this sort of proclamation on a social media site with extremely strict moderation. Almost as though this isn't as simple a topic as "stick and stones" and that everyone has different tolerances for what they'll put up with depending on the setting and context.

jraph 4y ago

> Offense is a you problem, not a me problem Most definitely not. Of course people need to work on themselves to avoid being offended. But if you communicate with other people, it's because you want to achieve something. Probably not offending the target (or else fuck you I guess ;-)). So, usually, offense gets in the way, so you should care about not offending your target. And beyond this, as human beings, we usually care not to hurt other human beings. It's a we problem. > no matter the practicality or reality of the situation. Do you have example of this? Of course you are expected to show some empathy/sympathy, but I've never seem people impose unrealistic expectations.

nasmorn 4y ago
I would not call anyone the N-word but would ask for a brown paper bag if I needed it at the grocery store. I have personally never met someone that is offended by the use of eg. colors as a concept but yet some people are trying to remove them from language.
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  Nobody is saying you can't say the word brown FFS.
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    There are entire documents in technology written to erase words White / Black List -> Allow / Deny Git "master" -> Main and about 10,000 other examples.
    - mrguyorama 4y ago
      You can name a branch master on git to your hearts content. We still have branches named master. We still have stuff we refer to as "whitelist" even though that was never an accurate descriptor for it in the first place. This shit isn't banned. Nobody stops you from using them.
      - phpisthebest 4y ago
        It would be unconstitutional in the US to ban it, the question or comment thread is not about being illegal to use the word.. The issue the social pressure against these terms, and the ever changing landscape one political segment of the population has in being forever offended by everything
        strix_varius 4y ago
        It's certainly not unconstitutional for organizations to ban words. It's happening every day at major tech companies.
        phpisthebest 4y ago
        This entire comment thread should be a master class in logical fallcies as every reply shifts the goal posts back and forth.... Which i suspect is the end goal as that way no one actually have to address the underlying issues of compelled / socially enforced speech and the ongoing attacks on free expression on top of the ever shrinking mental health of the population has society coddles people into believing everyone else has to manage an individuals mental health instead of having to harden your own mind and come to terms with the fact the life is rarely fair, kind, nor do people (nor should) about your "feelings"
phpisthebest 4y ago
>Do you have example of this? How about the push to rename words in technology that have been in use for decades, like changing the default git repo from master to main. or the parent comment I replied to originally -- "This is what bothers me about the recent obsession with pronouns - I have enough trouble remembering people's names; and now I am also asked to remember how to modify my grammar or lexicon when in vicinity of a given person? " for which there is not even any social indicators of this, and for a given person could change at any given time from week to week or day to day. A person that changes their pronouns daily seems to me to have an unrealistic expectation that people will be able to keep track of that.
- foldr 4y ago
  Have you come across anyone who changed their pronouns daily and expected you to keep track of it? It annoys me how often this discussion gets bogged down in weird hypothetical scenarios. In my experience, people who use nonstandard pronouns (or pronouns that you might not guess from their appearance) are completely reasonable about it. They only ask that you make a genuine effort to remember the correct pronoun choice – which is not very much to ask. It's certainly no more work than, say, remembering the correct pronunciation of their name. I might add that almost anyone will be ok with singular 'they', if you're ever unsure, as it is gender neutral.
  - prewett 4y ago
    I have met people like this. And heard someone correct someone else for using it wrong. In fact, when during introductions, this person said their pronoun so loudly that I forgot their name (partly because it made no sense to put two pronouns after a name, so it spent a lot of time trying to parse the grammar, as I had just recently moved to a very Progressive city and it was the first time I had encountered it personally). There is another group I am in that has name tags and there are stickers with pronouns I've never even heard of (something like ver/ver, xe,xer, etc.).
    - wonderwonder 4y ago
      I cant imagine ever getting to the point where I care enough what people call me to make a big deal out of it. I work with people that have been saying my name comedically wrong for months now and I couldn't care less. I have a couple other people that think my last name is my first name and call me by that. Its hilarious. Imagine getting upset or aggressive with someone just because they don't remember the pronouns you made up. That's a you problem, not a me problem. I don't know the name's of 75% of the people I work with (I work with a 100+ people a week) and I really have no time or inclination to make the effort. If someone makes up pronouns that don't correspond to their image they are going to get mad at me because I am pretty much incapable of remembering their name let alone their pronouns. If I remember, cool I will use them but I'm really not going to spend hours practicing. Its not an intentional insult, I want everyone to be happy, I just don't have the effort or inclination in me to expend on it.

lapcat 4y ago

> Offense is a you problem, not a me problem. We have abandoned the axiom of "sticks and stones" I think you miss the point of "sticks and stones". The point is not that it's ok to say whatever you want to anyone else. The point of "sticks and stones" is not to let other people bring down your self-esteem. Other people will intentionally try to denigrate you. They'll call you "stupid". They'll call you "ugly". Or they may call you a racial slur. That's all unacceptable. That's a "me" problem for the speaker. The point of "sticks and stones", on the other hand, is to resist internalizing these external insults and degradations. It's to put on a virtual suit of armor to protect you from verbal attacks — and let's be clear, they're real attacks. You don't just "accidentally" beat someone with physical sticks and stones, right? The intention is to hurt, to break their bones, as it were. That's the analogy, with intentionally hurtful words.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

skissane 4y ago

> Today it no longer enough to be "tolerant" you have to actively affirm, support, and validate everything about everyone at all times and support their emotional state no matter the practicality or reality of the situation. That’s absolutely not true though - you only have to affirm/support/validate people’s identities and emotional states when their identity/emotions aligns with the zeitgeist; if those things contradict the zeitgeist, then affirmation/support/validation is somewhere between optional and evil.