4 ms·

Can I interest you in some liberation?

2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
The people of Iran are currently in the process of liberating themselves. I hope they succeed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021%E2%80%932022_Iranian_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021%E2%80%932022_Iranian_prot...
- 4gotunameagain 4y ago
  > themselves With zero external influence, I bet ;)
  - ybinator604g3 4y ago
    Exactly, like all the external influence that keep the mullahs afloat :)
    - pphysch 4y ago
      The govt of Iran has savvy foreign policy, and it's remarkable that it had stayed afloat despite being targeted by monstrous crimes like Stuxnet and assassinations.
- my_city 4y ago
  [flagged]
- reitanqild 4y ago
  [flagged]
- londons_explore 4y ago
  Large scale protests like this are frequently externally influenced. I really wouldn't be surprised if in 50 years time when top secret documents are released to archives we don't find that these protests are being financially supported or organised by USA/Israel/the west. It wouldn't be the first time [1][2][3] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change_in_Latin_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_intervention_in_Libya_(2015%E2%80%932019) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_intervention_in_Libya... [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_involvement_in_the_Venezuelan_presidential_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_involvement_in_the_Ven...
  - toyg 4y ago
    The American Revolution was bankrolled by interested parties in Europe. That doesn't make its ideals and achievements less valid.
    - pphysch 4y ago
      What ideals and achievements?
      - celu 4y ago
        Democracy
        pphysch 4y ago
        USA isn't a democracy, it's a republic. And "the people" was defined to exclude native Americans, people with dark skin, poors, etc. Altogether a very weak flavor of "democracy".
        2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
        https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/11/yes-constitution-democracy/616949/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/11/yes-consti... > There is some truth to this insistence. But it is mostly disingenuous. The Constitution was meant to foster a complex form of majority rule, not enable minority rule. Forming the United States also took a lot of compromise. If nobody was willing to budge on these archaic issues we wouldn't be here today. It doesn't change the vision that all men are created equal and entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
        pphysch 4y ago
        Nor does it change the fact that the USA has been violating that vision since day 1, and despite some moments of light, hasn't stopped.
    - 4y ago
- oynqr 4y ago
  Great, can't wait for another democracy that is doomed from the start.
  - nine_k 4y ago
    Why would it be doomed? What reasons do you see for this to happen? Unlike Iraq or Afghanistan, Iran has a long and recent history of being a highly orderly society. How democratic it would be is another question, but very likely it at least is not going to be as oppressive. Even if the resulting state were closer to Singapore than to Switzerland, it would still be a serious relief for the population.
    - twelve40 4y ago
      Iraq is not Afghanistan, it had similar conditions to Iran and ended up a disaster. In fact, can you name even one thriving democracy in the Middle East? Except Israel of course, which has history and culture that is very different for that region.
      - nine_k 4y ago
        As much as I can tell, Iraq as a powerful independent state was destroyed by Mongols in 1300s, and never restored. Since then, Iraq was controlled by various foreign powers, as a colony: partly Persian, partly Ottoman / Turkish; since late 19th century, it was increasingly under British control, and since 1970s, under Saddam Hussein: independent but rather undemocratic. Iran was independent and powerful since 1500s, and it even converted the previous waves of invaders to its culture (somehow similar how the Manchu invaders gradually converted to the Chinese culture). While obviously not democratic, Iran was not a cultural backwater, up until the Islamic revolution in 1979. Even under the power of ayatollahs Iran's urban societies feature strong citizen movements demanding more liberty and equality, e.g. women equality: women had much more rights under the last Shah regime, and people remember that. In general, I suppose that Iran, had the current theocratic regime been overthrown, would not turn into a failed state, much like Russia hasn't become a failed state after the Communist regime fell. (Regarding perspectives of EU / US-style liberal democracy there, I'm much less certain, though chances are.)
mistermann 4y ago
It's especially funny because we can't desire for it to be otherwise.
mywittyname 4y ago
Iran is the Switzerland of the middle east. If "liberation" were viable, the USA would have probably already attempted it.

The people of Iran are currently in the process of liberating themselves. I hope they succeed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021%E2%80%932022_Iranian_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021%E2%80%932022_Iranian_prot...

4gotunameagain 4y ago
> themselves With zero external influence, I bet ;)
- ybinator604g3 4y ago
  Exactly, like all the external influence that keep the mullahs afloat :)
  - pphysch 4y ago
    The govt of Iran has savvy foreign policy, and it's remarkable that it had stayed afloat despite being targeted by monstrous crimes like Stuxnet and assassinations.
my_city 4y ago
[flagged]
reitanqild 4y ago
[flagged]
londons_explore 4y ago
Large scale protests like this are frequently externally influenced. I really wouldn't be surprised if in 50 years time when top secret documents are released to archives we don't find that these protests are being financially supported or organised by USA/Israel/the west. It wouldn't be the first time [1][2][3] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change_in_Latin_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_intervention_in_Libya_(2015%E2%80%932019) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_intervention_in_Libya... [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_involvement_in_the_Venezuelan_presidential_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_involvement_in_the_Ven...
- toyg 4y ago
  The American Revolution was bankrolled by interested parties in Europe. That doesn't make its ideals and achievements less valid.
  - pphysch 4y ago
    What ideals and achievements?
    - celu 4y ago
      Democracy
      - pphysch 4y ago
        USA isn't a democracy, it's a republic. And "the people" was defined to exclude native Americans, people with dark skin, poors, etc. Altogether a very weak flavor of "democracy".
        2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
        https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/11/yes-constitution-democracy/616949/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/11/yes-consti... > There is some truth to this insistence. But it is mostly disingenuous. The Constitution was meant to foster a complex form of majority rule, not enable minority rule. Forming the United States also took a lot of compromise. If nobody was willing to budge on these archaic issues we wouldn't be here today. It doesn't change the vision that all men are created equal and entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
        pphysch 4y ago
        Nor does it change the fact that the USA has been violating that vision since day 1, and despite some moments of light, hasn't stopped.
  - 4y ago
oynqr 4y ago
Great, can't wait for another democracy that is doomed from the start.
- nine_k 4y ago
  Why would it be doomed? What reasons do you see for this to happen? Unlike Iraq or Afghanistan, Iran has a long and recent history of being a highly orderly society. How democratic it would be is another question, but very likely it at least is not going to be as oppressive. Even if the resulting state were closer to Singapore than to Switzerland, it would still be a serious relief for the population.
  - twelve40 4y ago
    Iraq is not Afghanistan, it had similar conditions to Iran and ended up a disaster. In fact, can you name even one thriving democracy in the Middle East? Except Israel of course, which has history and culture that is very different for that region.
    - nine_k 4y ago
      As much as I can tell, Iraq as a powerful independent state was destroyed by Mongols in 1300s, and never restored. Since then, Iraq was controlled by various foreign powers, as a colony: partly Persian, partly Ottoman / Turkish; since late 19th century, it was increasingly under British control, and since 1970s, under Saddam Hussein: independent but rather undemocratic. Iran was independent and powerful since 1500s, and it even converted the previous waves of invaders to its culture (somehow similar how the Manchu invaders gradually converted to the Chinese culture). While obviously not democratic, Iran was not a cultural backwater, up until the Islamic revolution in 1979. Even under the power of ayatollahs Iran's urban societies feature strong citizen movements demanding more liberty and equality, e.g. women equality: women had much more rights under the last Shah regime, and people remember that. In general, I suppose that Iran, had the current theocratic regime been overthrown, would not turn into a failed state, much like Russia hasn't become a failed state after the Communist regime fell. (Regarding perspectives of EU / US-style liberal democracy there, I'm much less certain, though chances are.)

mistermann 4y ago

It's especially funny because we can't desire for it to be otherwise.

mywittyname 4y ago

Iran is the Switzerland of the middle east. If "liberation" were viable, the USA would have probably already attempted it.