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I'd say more generally "Being embarrassed isn't an enjoyable experience" - it's embarrassing to find out you're using an offensive word or to feel like you're o

by smcl 4y ago

I'd say more generally "Being embarrassed isn't an enjoyable experience" - it's embarrassing to find out you're using an offensive word or to feel like you're out of touch, but what's important is what you do with those feelings, how you react. If someone politely reminds you that some word is inflammatory and not well-liked among a given community it describes, then you can either take it politely or blow up about how the world is going crazy and complain about stuff being "woke". That said if someone goes thermonuclear on you because you used "deaf" instead of "hearing-impaired", yeah that person is clearly a dick, doesn't deserve your time of day (note: just re-purposing the example from earlier, obviously this is not something anyone in this thread has done) It'd be good to be able to convey that to someone who does feel like there is a "language police" or that it is anxiety-inducing to engage with younger people. I should note though that when I've encountered this - among people being racist or homophobic - people tend to dig in, become stubborn and rant about "woke culture" or genders so clearly the problem cuts both ways (and I hope you can see I'm clearly not the type to fly off the handle at someone for something innocuous).

josephg 4y ago
Is the word “client” offensive? Stanford apparently thinks so. Is “blind” offensive to blind people? Is “mother” offensive? Apparently some people take offence at this stuff. Should I respect them for it? Should I feel embarrassed for being “out of touch” because I don’t side with the censors here? Being told not to use these terms is language policing. It’s especially odious when it comes from people taking offence on behalf of others. My experience having my language policed isn’t as simple as feeling embarrassed. I would angry at people who demand I stop calling my mother my mother. So would she. And you don’t merely “feel like” something is anxiety inducing. That’s not how anxiety works. People can and will feel anxiety for all sorts of reasons that might seem ridiculous to you or I. I find awkward scenes in movies anxiety inducing. I don’t just think they’re anxiety inducing - I feel actual anxiety while watching. I’m happy for you that you never feel anxious about the idea of getting yelled at for your word choices. I wish everyone had that privilege. But we don’t live in that world. Lots of people - rightly or wrongly - feel terrorised by the idea of using the wrong words and getting yelled at for it. And I think that sucks for them! The experience you have - of people getting defensive about this stuff - where do you think that reaction comes from? I think it’s a social immune reaction to being told what to say. People hate that.
- smcl 4y ago
  > Is the word “client” offensive? Stanford apparently thinks so Has someone singled you out and told you that you're being offensive for using the word "client"? I suspect not, I think you've overreacted to this a bit. The document you linked has this in its third paragraph: > The purpose of this website is to educate people about the possible impact of the words we use. We are not attempting to assign levels of harm to the terms on this site. We also are not attempting to address all informal uses of language. So they're stating ahead of time they're not trying to get rid of this and create a form of "newspeak" or whatever, they're outlining some words some people use that have a variety of different implications and suggesting some alternatives to them in some contexts. The word "client" is under their "Imprecise" section, they suggest "user" instead. It is worth noting that I have personally encountered its ambiguity - a “client” in my current role can variously mean: - a user or a person - one of the accounts of that user/person - a hospital or healthcare provider - the application calling an API (“client” in OpenID Connect) - a package/lib we published to call an API We can either live with the idea that “client” is always going to need clarification, or start using the terms Person, Account, Organization, Client and API Client (respectively). > Is “blind” offensive to blind people? Is “mother” offensive? Have you been confronted for saying "blind" or "mother"? This sounds very hypothetical. If you want to have my feelings on “blind” check out what I said about “deaf” https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35007350 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35007350 - two of the words interpreted as euphemisms were actually broader than strictly "deaf", and one sounded comical. > Should I feel embarrassed for being “out of touch” because I don’t side with the censors here? You've mixed things up a bit here, and I hope it was by accident so I'll clarify. This "embarrassed" was me contextualising what people feel in the situation where, for example, Andy uses an antiquated and offensive term to refer to an ethnic minority without realising it, then Bob corrects them. In your terms Bob has "policed" Andy, and it's not nice to feel that. I'm saying that what's actually happening here is Andy is embarrassed or ashamed, which is a thing that can happen easily (they could've called Andy "Albert" or farted or something else) and that's why they feel bad. What happens next is on Andy - they could do what they do in all other embarrassing situations and say "ah sorry I didn't realise" or they could fly off the handle and dig their heels in. There's obviously a limit to how forgiving people are, I don't think Andy would get off lightly for using the n-word, for example. So I can't think why you should feel embarrassed about the existence of this document, but I also can't think why you'd get so upset about it if it isn't affecting how you talk or causing problems in your life. > I would angry at people who demand I stop calling my mother my mother Who is demanding that? Is someone in your life telling you to do this? If they are - tell them to fuck off, that's none of their business. If not ... why are you inventing a situation where someone tells you not to call your mother "mother"? With the situations you've brought up, it sounds like you're more annoyed about the idea of being told what to say, than anyone actually doing it to you. That sounds anxiety-inducing but I don't know what I can suggest that would help. For what it's worth if you're a famous Gen Z streamer then yeah you're going to be held to some pretty high standards language-wise, and people will outright be looking to cause drama (and tbh they often court it and play it up themselves but that's another matter). The rest of us aren't held to that standard, and normally people don't enter a conversation looking to destroy their conversation partner, they usually go in with best intentions and if you meet them at that level and act respectfully there's not a great deal that can go wrong. When that's not the case (in a small amount of situations) and you're dealing with an oddball, you can excuse yourself or you can nod along and then later text your partner or best friend about the weirdo you spoke to :) It's very unlikely they would be in a position to cause you any trouble in either case.

by smcl 4y ago

josephg 4y ago

Is the word “client” offensive? Stanford apparently thinks so. Is “blind” offensive to blind people? Is “mother” offensive? Apparently some people take offence at this stuff. Should I respect them for it? Should I feel embarrassed for being “out of touch” because I don’t side with the censors here? Being told not to use these terms is language policing. It’s especially odious when it comes from people taking offence on behalf of others. My experience having my language policed isn’t as simple as feeling embarrassed. I would angry at people who demand I stop calling my mother my mother. So would she. And you don’t merely “feel like” something is anxiety inducing. That’s not how anxiety works. People can and will feel anxiety for all sorts of reasons that might seem ridiculous to you or I. I find awkward scenes in movies anxiety inducing. I don’t just think they’re anxiety inducing - I feel actual anxiety while watching. I’m happy for you that you never feel anxious about the idea of getting yelled at for your word choices. I wish everyone had that privilege. But we don’t live in that world. Lots of people - rightly or wrongly - feel terrorised by the idea of using the wrong words and getting yelled at for it. And I think that sucks for them! The experience you have - of people getting defensive about this stuff - where do you think that reaction comes from? I think it’s a social immune reaction to being told what to say. People hate that.

smcl 4y ago
> Is the word “client” offensive? Stanford apparently thinks so Has someone singled you out and told you that you're being offensive for using the word "client"? I suspect not, I think you've overreacted to this a bit. The document you linked has this in its third paragraph: > The purpose of this website is to educate people about the possible impact of the words we use. We are not attempting to assign levels of harm to the terms on this site. We also are not attempting to address all informal uses of language. So they're stating ahead of time they're not trying to get rid of this and create a form of "newspeak" or whatever, they're outlining some words some people use that have a variety of different implications and suggesting some alternatives to them in some contexts. The word "client" is under their "Imprecise" section, they suggest "user" instead. It is worth noting that I have personally encountered its ambiguity - a “client” in my current role can variously mean: - a user or a person - one of the accounts of that user/person - a hospital or healthcare provider - the application calling an API (“client” in OpenID Connect) - a package/lib we published to call an API We can either live with the idea that “client” is always going to need clarification, or start using the terms Person, Account, Organization, Client and API Client (respectively). > Is “blind” offensive to blind people? Is “mother” offensive? Have you been confronted for saying "blind" or "mother"? This sounds very hypothetical. If you want to have my feelings on “blind” check out what I said about “deaf” https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35007350 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35007350 - two of the words interpreted as euphemisms were actually broader than strictly "deaf", and one sounded comical. > Should I feel embarrassed for being “out of touch” because I don’t side with the censors here? You've mixed things up a bit here, and I hope it was by accident so I'll clarify. This "embarrassed" was me contextualising what people feel in the situation where, for example, Andy uses an antiquated and offensive term to refer to an ethnic minority without realising it, then Bob corrects them. In your terms Bob has "policed" Andy, and it's not nice to feel that. I'm saying that what's actually happening here is Andy is embarrassed or ashamed, which is a thing that can happen easily (they could've called Andy "Albert" or farted or something else) and that's why they feel bad. What happens next is on Andy - they could do what they do in all other embarrassing situations and say "ah sorry I didn't realise" or they could fly off the handle and dig their heels in. There's obviously a limit to how forgiving people are, I don't think Andy would get off lightly for using the n-word, for example. So I can't think why you should feel embarrassed about the existence of this document, but I also can't think why you'd get so upset about it if it isn't affecting how you talk or causing problems in your life. > I would angry at people who demand I stop calling my mother my mother Who is demanding that? Is someone in your life telling you to do this? If they are - tell them to fuck off, that's none of their business. If not ... why are you inventing a situation where someone tells you not to call your mother "mother"? With the situations you've brought up, it sounds like you're more annoyed about the idea of being told what to say, than anyone actually doing it to you. That sounds anxiety-inducing but I don't know what I can suggest that would help. For what it's worth if you're a famous Gen Z streamer then yeah you're going to be held to some pretty high standards language-wise, and people will outright be looking to cause drama (and tbh they often court it and play it up themselves but that's another matter). The rest of us aren't held to that standard, and normally people don't enter a conversation looking to destroy their conversation partner, they usually go in with best intentions and if you meet them at that level and act respectfully there's not a great deal that can go wrong. When that's not the case (in a small amount of situations) and you're dealing with an oddball, you can excuse yourself or you can nod along and then later text your partner or best friend about the weirdo you spoke to :) It's very unlikely they would be in a position to cause you any trouble in either case.