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> I suspect the unease you perceive with people using different terms for blindness are unease with their own attachments to those words. Nah. I think people a

> I suspect the unease you perceive with people using different terms for blindness are unease with their own attachments to those words. Nah. I think people are just terrified of coming across as a jerk for not knowing the latest non-offensive term for things. Black? African American? Oh black is ok again? Will I get in trouble with HR/Twitter for calling you blind? And if so, what word do I use instead? Do I ask? Is that awkward? Am I making it awkward?? It feels like a minefield, where the location of the mines change every few months and stepping on a mine could cost you big time. The language police keep finding new things to get offended by, too. The Stanford “harmful language list” includes things like “user”, “tribe”, “client” and “addict”. Pleasing these people is exhausting. [1] https://s.wsj.net/public/resources/documents/stanfordlanguage.pdf https://s.wsj.net/public/resources/documents/stanfordlanguag...

smcl 4y ago
"Terrified" is a bit much, I think most people just want to get along and are happy to use whatever term is acceptable to those it describes. Our understanding of what those terms are might shift over time, and it may get muddied by well-intentioned people trying a bit hard to avoid offence (or by people clumsily trying to police it) but it's generally progressing fine. And I think as long as you're compassionate, willing to listen and learn it's hard to really fuck up to the point that you're "cancelled" (to the extent that actually exists) unless you're deliberately looking to cause trouble.
- josephg 4y ago
  I agree it’s usually fine in practice, but I know plenty of people who still find the whole thing quite anxiety inducing. Having your language policed isn’t an enjoyable experience. Doubly so when it feels counterproductive - like avoiding the word “blind” with blind people who might quite like the term.
  - smcl 4y ago
    I'd say more generally "Being embarrassed isn't an enjoyable experience" - it's embarrassing to find out you're using an offensive word or to feel like you're out of touch, but what's important is what you do with those feelings, how you react. If someone politely reminds you that some word is inflammatory and not well-liked among a given community it describes, then you can either take it politely or blow up about how the world is going crazy and complain about stuff being "woke". That said if someone goes thermonuclear on you because you used "deaf" instead of "hearing-impaired", yeah that person is clearly a dick, doesn't deserve your time of day (note: just re-purposing the example from earlier, obviously this is not something anyone in this thread has done) It'd be good to be able to convey that to someone who does feel like there is a "language police" or that it is anxiety-inducing to engage with younger people. I should note though that when I've encountered this - among people being racist or homophobic - people tend to dig in, become stubborn and rant about "woke culture" or genders so clearly the problem cuts both ways (and I hope you can see I'm clearly not the type to fly off the handle at someone for something innocuous).
    - josephg 4y ago
      Is the word “client” offensive? Stanford apparently thinks so. Is “blind” offensive to blind people? Is “mother” offensive? Apparently some people take offence at this stuff. Should I respect them for it? Should I feel embarrassed for being “out of touch” because I don’t side with the censors here? Being told not to use these terms is language policing. It’s especially odious when it comes from people taking offence on behalf of others. My experience having my language policed isn’t as simple as feeling embarrassed. I would angry at people who demand I stop calling my mother my mother. So would she. And you don’t merely “feel like” something is anxiety inducing. That’s not how anxiety works. People can and will feel anxiety for all sorts of reasons that might seem ridiculous to you or I. I find awkward scenes in movies anxiety inducing. I don’t just think they’re anxiety inducing - I feel actual anxiety while watching. I’m happy for you that you never feel anxious about the idea of getting yelled at for your word choices. I wish everyone had that privilege. But we don’t live in that world. Lots of people - rightly or wrongly - feel terrorised by the idea of using the wrong words and getting yelled at for it. And I think that sucks for them! The experience you have - of people getting defensive about this stuff - where do you think that reaction comes from? I think it’s a social immune reaction to being told what to say. People hate that.
- bryanrasmussen 4y ago
  >"Terrified" is a bit much, I think most people just want to get along and are happy to use whatever term is acceptable to those it describes. I'm supposing some people might be more anxious about it than others, and in different contexts. If you see a lot of stuff in the news about people saying things you might have said and getting hounded for it that might make you super anxious - you don't know the etiquette anymore!! I mean people get anxious about getting robbed when they read a robbery happened, why shouldn't they get anxious about having their life destroyed for something they said if they read someone got their life destroyed in that way.
  - smcl 4y ago
    Yeah that's something where you'd hope people could step back and realise that the news is often sensationalised and seeks out salacious stories of people being "cancelled" because they get people riled up and engaged. I still think that if you're open-minded, conscientious and not looking for conflict you can navigate a conversation with even the most extremely over-sensitive of people without having any issues.
    - josephg 4y ago
      I think you can too, when you’re in person and in a calm situation. And when there’s trust between you. And when you have some skills at conflict resolution. I’m comparatively good at this stuff, and even I find it very tiring even in best case scenarios. I dated someone who was very woke about a decade ago. She and I eventually decided to just never talk about politics. She would get really worked up over small disagreements that avoiding the subject entirely was the only strategy we found to keep the peace. And that was despite agreeing on about 95% of our political opinions.
  - twohaibei 4y ago
    As someone not from US working in a US company I'm terrified. Literally.
- red-iron-pine 4y ago
  Terrified might be a bit strong but fearful or afraid isn't. I am definitely afraid of stepping on a verbal landmine in a work context. This is my meal ticket, and what's keeping my family housed. There is a very real fear or stepping on toes, even if accidental, and that translates to behaviors. I'm also afraid of sticking my neck out in heated situations. I've had to push back managers, PMs, and other coworkers in ways that will often make them angry. I've seen the race card get played against other managers, so I have to CYA on any vaguely negative interaction.
  - smcl 4y ago
    It sounds like you've got a pretty stressful workplace overall to be honest. I don't exactly want to be having debates about the big social issues of today with my colleagues, but on the other hand I don't think anyone should feel like they are walking on eggshells.
Jcowell 4y ago
When was “Black” not okay. “Blacks” sure.

smcl 4y ago

"Terrified" is a bit much, I think most people just want to get along and are happy to use whatever term is acceptable to those it describes. Our understanding of what those terms are might shift over time, and it may get muddied by well-intentioned people trying a bit hard to avoid offence (or by people clumsily trying to police it) but it's generally progressing fine. And I think as long as you're compassionate, willing to listen and learn it's hard to really fuck up to the point that you're "cancelled" (to the extent that actually exists) unless you're deliberately looking to cause trouble.

josephg 4y ago
I agree it’s usually fine in practice, but I know plenty of people who still find the whole thing quite anxiety inducing. Having your language policed isn’t an enjoyable experience. Doubly so when it feels counterproductive - like avoiding the word “blind” with blind people who might quite like the term.
- smcl 4y ago
  I'd say more generally "Being embarrassed isn't an enjoyable experience" - it's embarrassing to find out you're using an offensive word or to feel like you're out of touch, but what's important is what you do with those feelings, how you react. If someone politely reminds you that some word is inflammatory and not well-liked among a given community it describes, then you can either take it politely or blow up about how the world is going crazy and complain about stuff being "woke". That said if someone goes thermonuclear on you because you used "deaf" instead of "hearing-impaired", yeah that person is clearly a dick, doesn't deserve your time of day (note: just re-purposing the example from earlier, obviously this is not something anyone in this thread has done) It'd be good to be able to convey that to someone who does feel like there is a "language police" or that it is anxiety-inducing to engage with younger people. I should note though that when I've encountered this - among people being racist or homophobic - people tend to dig in, become stubborn and rant about "woke culture" or genders so clearly the problem cuts both ways (and I hope you can see I'm clearly not the type to fly off the handle at someone for something innocuous).
  - josephg 4y ago
    Is the word “client” offensive? Stanford apparently thinks so. Is “blind” offensive to blind people? Is “mother” offensive? Apparently some people take offence at this stuff. Should I respect them for it? Should I feel embarrassed for being “out of touch” because I don’t side with the censors here? Being told not to use these terms is language policing. It’s especially odious when it comes from people taking offence on behalf of others. My experience having my language policed isn’t as simple as feeling embarrassed. I would angry at people who demand I stop calling my mother my mother. So would she. And you don’t merely “feel like” something is anxiety inducing. That’s not how anxiety works. People can and will feel anxiety for all sorts of reasons that might seem ridiculous to you or I. I find awkward scenes in movies anxiety inducing. I don’t just think they’re anxiety inducing - I feel actual anxiety while watching. I’m happy for you that you never feel anxious about the idea of getting yelled at for your word choices. I wish everyone had that privilege. But we don’t live in that world. Lots of people - rightly or wrongly - feel terrorised by the idea of using the wrong words and getting yelled at for it. And I think that sucks for them! The experience you have - of people getting defensive about this stuff - where do you think that reaction comes from? I think it’s a social immune reaction to being told what to say. People hate that.
bryanrasmussen 4y ago
>"Terrified" is a bit much, I think most people just want to get along and are happy to use whatever term is acceptable to those it describes. I'm supposing some people might be more anxious about it than others, and in different contexts. If you see a lot of stuff in the news about people saying things you might have said and getting hounded for it that might make you super anxious - you don't know the etiquette anymore!! I mean people get anxious about getting robbed when they read a robbery happened, why shouldn't they get anxious about having their life destroyed for something they said if they read someone got their life destroyed in that way.
- smcl 4y ago
  Yeah that's something where you'd hope people could step back and realise that the news is often sensationalised and seeks out salacious stories of people being "cancelled" because they get people riled up and engaged. I still think that if you're open-minded, conscientious and not looking for conflict you can navigate a conversation with even the most extremely over-sensitive of people without having any issues.
  - josephg 4y ago
    I think you can too, when you’re in person and in a calm situation. And when there’s trust between you. And when you have some skills at conflict resolution. I’m comparatively good at this stuff, and even I find it very tiring even in best case scenarios. I dated someone who was very woke about a decade ago. She and I eventually decided to just never talk about politics. She would get really worked up over small disagreements that avoiding the subject entirely was the only strategy we found to keep the peace. And that was despite agreeing on about 95% of our political opinions.
- twohaibei 4y ago
  As someone not from US working in a US company I'm terrified. Literally.
red-iron-pine 4y ago
Terrified might be a bit strong but fearful or afraid isn't. I am definitely afraid of stepping on a verbal landmine in a work context. This is my meal ticket, and what's keeping my family housed. There is a very real fear or stepping on toes, even if accidental, and that translates to behaviors. I'm also afraid of sticking my neck out in heated situations. I've had to push back managers, PMs, and other coworkers in ways that will often make them angry. I've seen the race card get played against other managers, so I have to CYA on any vaguely negative interaction.
- smcl 4y ago
  It sounds like you've got a pretty stressful workplace overall to be honest. I don't exactly want to be having debates about the big social issues of today with my colleagues, but on the other hand I don't think anyone should feel like they are walking on eggshells.

Jcowell 4y ago

When was “Black” not okay. “Blacks” sure.