5 ms·

> IMO the purpose of language changing is not to improve the world; instead, it's to give the feeling of changing the world without putting any real effort. It

> IMO the purpose of language changing is not to improve the world; instead, it's to give the feeling of changing the world without putting any real effort. It's worse than that. It's a way of signaling. When I started to read the article I hoped that it would mention Steven Pinker's Euphemism Treadmill. I was disappointed. The short story is that changing language is a quick way of differentiating an in-group from an out-group. The in-group are those that are aware of the change and align by adopting it. We saw this with the instantaneous change of Kiev to Kyiv in news media at the start of the war. It is not just a thing that society does with the names of disabilities, oops, I'm sorry, "different conditions."

molsongolden 4y ago
Looked up the Steven Pinker article and it was an interesting read. Written in 1994 but could have been written yesterday. [PDF]https://stevenpinker.com/files/pinker/files/1994_04_03_newyorktimes.pdf https://stevenpinker.com/files/pinker/files/1994_04_03_newyo...
- golemotron 4y ago
  'Purity Spirals' are a related concept.
2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
>Kiev to Kyiv Why is this an instance of the phenomenon? Isn't Kyiv closer to what a Ukrainian would say?
- naniwaduni 4y ago
  Do anglos read Kiev and Kyiv particularly differently in the first place? In any case, it sounds further from a normative Ukrainian pronunciation than Caillou.
  - blep_ 4y ago
    I read Kiev with an /ɛ/ sound, and Kyiv with an /ɪ/ sound. In my head, at least. I've just realized that I haven't needed to verbally refer to this place since I became aware of the renaming. In fact, I don't know that I've ever said either one out loud.
- YurgenJurgensen 4y ago
  But it's still Moscow, Russia and not Moskva, Rossiya. It's Tokyo, Japan not Toukyou, Nippon and Germany and not Deutschland. If you're going to drop exonyms, you should at least do it consistently, rather than only for currently-trending locations.
  - dagw 4y ago
    The main difference is that the request to change the English spelling from Kiev to Kyiv came from the Ukrainian government. As far as I know Japanese or German government haven't requested that we stop writing "Japan" and "Germany". The closest current example going on right now is the Turkish government wanting to change the English spelling of their country from "Turkey" to "Turkiye".
    - YurgenJurgensen 4y ago
      It went beyond official names of cities. Supermarkets actually changed the spelling of the Chicken Kiev to Chicken Kyiv. (But left Bombay Potato and Chicken Madras unchanged, even though Bombay and Madras haven't been called that for decades.). Zelenskyy probably has better things to do right now than dictate the spelling of breaded garlic chicken fillets.
      - golemotron 4y ago
        In Signalling theory this is known as an expensive signal.
    - andsoitis 4y ago
      > As far as I know Japanese or German government haven't requested that we stop writing "Japan" and "Germany". Because they know it would be silly. Do they go to every language and ask for a change? For instance ask France to stop using “Allemagne” and use Deutschland instead? Now repeat for hundreds or thousands of languages… not only would it accomplish nothing, it is pretty disrespectful to demand of the other language users how they refer to places.
  - 4y ago

molsongolden 4y ago

Looked up the Steven Pinker article and it was an interesting read. Written in 1994 but could have been written yesterday. [PDF]https://stevenpinker.com/files/pinker/files/1994_04_03_newyorktimes.pdf https://stevenpinker.com/files/pinker/files/1994_04_03_newyo...

golemotron 4y ago
'Purity Spirals' are a related concept.

2muchcoffeeman 4y ago

>Kiev to Kyiv Why is this an instance of the phenomenon? Isn't Kyiv closer to what a Ukrainian would say?

naniwaduni 4y ago
Do anglos read Kiev and Kyiv particularly differently in the first place? In any case, it sounds further from a normative Ukrainian pronunciation than Caillou.
- blep_ 4y ago
  I read Kiev with an /ɛ/ sound, and Kyiv with an /ɪ/ sound. In my head, at least. I've just realized that I haven't needed to verbally refer to this place since I became aware of the renaming. In fact, I don't know that I've ever said either one out loud.
YurgenJurgensen 4y ago
But it's still Moscow, Russia and not Moskva, Rossiya. It's Tokyo, Japan not Toukyou, Nippon and Germany and not Deutschland. If you're going to drop exonyms, you should at least do it consistently, rather than only for currently-trending locations.
- dagw 4y ago
  The main difference is that the request to change the English spelling from Kiev to Kyiv came from the Ukrainian government. As far as I know Japanese or German government haven't requested that we stop writing "Japan" and "Germany". The closest current example going on right now is the Turkish government wanting to change the English spelling of their country from "Turkey" to "Turkiye".
  - YurgenJurgensen 4y ago
    It went beyond official names of cities. Supermarkets actually changed the spelling of the Chicken Kiev to Chicken Kyiv. (But left Bombay Potato and Chicken Madras unchanged, even though Bombay and Madras haven't been called that for decades.). Zelenskyy probably has better things to do right now than dictate the spelling of breaded garlic chicken fillets.
    - golemotron 4y ago
      In Signalling theory this is known as an expensive signal.
  - andsoitis 4y ago
    > As far as I know Japanese or German government haven't requested that we stop writing "Japan" and "Germany". Because they know it would be silly. Do they go to every language and ask for a change? For instance ask France to stop using “Allemagne” and use Deutschland instead? Now repeat for hundreds or thousands of languages… not only would it accomplish nothing, it is pretty disrespectful to demand of the other language users how they refer to places.
- 4y ago