7 ms·

This is the exact same dynamic that happens with comedy. When a comedian offends a group, it's typically not people from that group who complain - it's third pa

This is the exact same dynamic that happens with comedy. When a comedian offends a group, it's typically not people from that group who complain - it's third parties who step in to represent that group. IMO the purpose of language changing is not to improve the world; instead, it's to give the feeling of changing the world without putting any real effort. Fun (in a sad way) fact: a friend of mine collaborates with an association that deals with diverse people. Some high-up complained that my friend's group (within the association) is "not diverse enough". Thing is: my friend is actually non-binary themselves. Go figure. EDIT: replaced the definition of my friend from "diverse" to "non-binary", in order to be exact; the same principle stands, though!

Y_Y 4y ago
A single person shouldn't be able to be diverse on their own! That's a property of groups. You can try to define a "default person" and then say you want each individual to differ from that in your favourite characteristics, but that's a different game and provides none of the benefits of actual diversity.
- Scarblac 4y ago
  It's me, actually. I'm 48, white, male, cis, hetero, graying, healthy, overweight but not obese, married with two kids, and slaving away in a wage job behind a computer somewhere. "Diverse" specifically means different from me. I feel it's good companies are looking for more diverse people to fill their jobs, I can't do them all.
- slackdog 4y ago
  I think you could reasonably describe a single person as 'diverse' in the 'diverse set of skills or experiences' sense. Like a jack-of-all-trades handyman. Or maybe for somebody that has a wide array of personalities which they reveal in different social contexts.
- the_af 4y ago
  > A single person shouldn't be able to be diverse on their own! Agreed, but I've seen it used like this more than once, and it's both hilarious and unintentionally offensive. A diverse group -- which makes more sense -- means something inoffensive: that the people in that group are different from each other, representing there's variety within the group according to some parameter (say, skin color). A "diverse" person as used in PC language is... exactly what? Someone with "diverse ethnicity" (seen this used!) is someone who what? Was this person the offspring of an orgy of people with different skin colors? Oooh.. I get it, a "diverse" person is someone who is not white, meaning the standard/normal skin color is white, and being "diverse" is to be "other than white", which is of course abnormal, because being white is what's normal. And people saying "diverse" don't even notice the irony of this!
golemotron 4y ago
> IMO the purpose of language changing is not to improve the world; instead, it's to give the feeling of changing the world without putting any real effort. It's worse than that. It's a way of signaling. When I started to read the article I hoped that it would mention Steven Pinker's Euphemism Treadmill. I was disappointed. The short story is that changing language is a quick way of differentiating an in-group from an out-group. The in-group are those that are aware of the change and align by adopting it. We saw this with the instantaneous change of Kiev to Kyiv in news media at the start of the war. It is not just a thing that society does with the names of disabilities, oops, I'm sorry, "different conditions."
- molsongolden 4y ago
  Looked up the Steven Pinker article and it was an interesting read. Written in 1994 but could have been written yesterday. [PDF]https://stevenpinker.com/files/pinker/files/1994_04_03_newyorktimes.pdf https://stevenpinker.com/files/pinker/files/1994_04_03_newyo...
  - golemotron 4y ago
    'Purity Spirals' are a related concept.
- 2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
  >Kiev to Kyiv Why is this an instance of the phenomenon? Isn't Kyiv closer to what a Ukrainian would say?
  - naniwaduni 4y ago
    Do anglos read Kiev and Kyiv particularly differently in the first place? In any case, it sounds further from a normative Ukrainian pronunciation than Caillou.
    - blep_ 4y ago
      I read Kiev with an /ɛ/ sound, and Kyiv with an /ɪ/ sound. In my head, at least. I've just realized that I haven't needed to verbally refer to this place since I became aware of the renaming. In fact, I don't know that I've ever said either one out loud.

Y_Y 4y ago

A single person shouldn't be able to be diverse on their own! That's a property of groups. You can try to define a "default person" and then say you want each individual to differ from that in your favourite characteristics, but that's a different game and provides none of the benefits of actual diversity.

Scarblac 4y ago
It's me, actually. I'm 48, white, male, cis, hetero, graying, healthy, overweight but not obese, married with two kids, and slaving away in a wage job behind a computer somewhere. "Diverse" specifically means different from me. I feel it's good companies are looking for more diverse people to fill their jobs, I can't do them all.
slackdog 4y ago
I think you could reasonably describe a single person as 'diverse' in the 'diverse set of skills or experiences' sense. Like a jack-of-all-trades handyman. Or maybe for somebody that has a wide array of personalities which they reveal in different social contexts.
the_af 4y ago
> A single person shouldn't be able to be diverse on their own! Agreed, but I've seen it used like this more than once, and it's both hilarious and unintentionally offensive. A diverse group -- which makes more sense -- means something inoffensive: that the people in that group are different from each other, representing there's variety within the group according to some parameter (say, skin color). A "diverse" person as used in PC language is... exactly what? Someone with "diverse ethnicity" (seen this used!) is someone who what? Was this person the offspring of an orgy of people with different skin colors? Oooh.. I get it, a "diverse" person is someone who is not white, meaning the standard/normal skin color is white, and being "diverse" is to be "other than white", which is of course abnormal, because being white is what's normal. And people saying "diverse" don't even notice the irony of this!

golemotron 4y ago

> IMO the purpose of language changing is not to improve the world; instead, it's to give the feeling of changing the world without putting any real effort. It's worse than that. It's a way of signaling. When I started to read the article I hoped that it would mention Steven Pinker's Euphemism Treadmill. I was disappointed. The short story is that changing language is a quick way of differentiating an in-group from an out-group. The in-group are those that are aware of the change and align by adopting it. We saw this with the instantaneous change of Kiev to Kyiv in news media at the start of the war. It is not just a thing that society does with the names of disabilities, oops, I'm sorry, "different conditions."

molsongolden 4y ago
Looked up the Steven Pinker article and it was an interesting read. Written in 1994 but could have been written yesterday. [PDF]https://stevenpinker.com/files/pinker/files/1994_04_03_newyorktimes.pdf https://stevenpinker.com/files/pinker/files/1994_04_03_newyo...
- golemotron 4y ago
  'Purity Spirals' are a related concept.
2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
>Kiev to Kyiv Why is this an instance of the phenomenon? Isn't Kyiv closer to what a Ukrainian would say?
- naniwaduni 4y ago
  Do anglos read Kiev and Kyiv particularly differently in the first place? In any case, it sounds further from a normative Ukrainian pronunciation than Caillou.
  - blep_ 4y ago
    I read Kiev with an /ɛ/ sound, and Kyiv with an /ɪ/ sound. In my head, at least. I've just realized that I haven't needed to verbally refer to this place since I became aware of the renaming. In fact, I don't know that I've ever said either one out loud.