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>just as newer battery chemistries moved away from cobalt Tesla seems to be the leader here. Per Investor Day[0] and other sources, they - developed low-coba

>just as newer battery chemistries moved away from cobalt Tesla seems to be the leader here. Per Investor Day[0] and other sources, they - developed low-cobalt and low-nickel cathodes, to reduce scarce battery metals - increased overall vehicle efficiency to allow iron cathodes which are earth-abundant - consolidated electronic modules to reduce microchips and wiring - are soon switching to 48V, to further reduce low-voltage copper wiring (copper being a 'medium-rare' metal) - switched from copper to aluminum high voltage conductors (per Munro Live), aluminum having better conductivity-to-weight - reduced vehicle structure with structural battery design and 'gigacasting' manufacturing Many of these seem to benefit from vertical integration. Are any other manufacturers pushing as hard here? [0] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hl1zEzVUV7w&t=1875s https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hl1zEzVUV7w&t=1875s

hulitu 4y ago
> Are any other manufacturers pushing as hard here? Why would they. Most of those things are not sustainable. You don't want alluminium wires in your car.
- TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
  It is really funny when West is discovering magic of cheap aluminum for wires, while former Eastern Block is ripping aluminum wires from walls because it is no.1 reason for fires.
  - jasongill 4y ago
    Aluminum is perfectly fine as a conductor, and perfectly safe. In the USA, we've used aluminum for most of our power transmission and distribution since the beginning of "the grid". Everything from the power plant to the meter at your home is connected with aluminum. Where aluminum causes fires is due to the fact that it expands and contracts more than copper does, and it can oxidize and corrode when not properly cared for (for example, when dissimilar metals are used, or when exposed aluminum wire ends are not properly coated). We can assume that someone at Tesla is familiar with the properties of aluminum and can insure that they are using the right connectors to mitigate these issues. (or at least, we can hope)
    - axus 4y ago
      Perhaps the decrease in reliability was pitched internally as a way to sell more Teslas in the future?
      - brookst 4y ago
        Yes, no class action suit destroying the company could ever come from that little conspiracy.
      - nine_k 4y ago
        Unlikely: buying a replacement car because your previous one burst into flames usually involves staying away from the previous brand.
    - tylerag 4y ago
      The other problem in house wiring is that when you tighten down the screw to attach the aluminum wire to the terminal, the aluminum work hardens, and expansion/contraction/vibration will cause it to break.
  - chollida1 4y ago
    > It is really funny when West is discovering magic of cheap aluminum for wires, while former Eastern Block is ripping aluminum wires from walls because it is no.1 reason for fires. Aluminum was used for a short time in the west for household wiring and was quickly outlawed.
    - zip1234 4y ago
      It's commonly used for the main wire into homes. As long as it is sized properly and uses the appropriate connections it is fine.
- newaccount74 4y ago
  I would assume those "high voltage conductors" are more like rigid bus bars, and not flexible wires. Edit: Judging by the picture on this article [1] I am wrong. [1]: https://hackaday.com/2022/01/13/exploring-tesla-model-s-high-voltage-cabling/ https://hackaday.com/2022/01/13/exploring-tesla-model-s-high...
  - schiffern 4y ago
    Tesla does use traditional stranded copper too, but the aluminum I referenced is indeed a rigid bus bar. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35014013 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35014013
- brookst 4y ago
  > You don't want alluminium wires in your car Why not? I^2*r says that running 75% less current will generate 94% less heat. Existing copper wires would be a disaster if cars ran on a 3V system. Aluminum at 48V will be fine, as long as it’s sized appropriately the same way copper is today.
  - KaiserPro 4y ago
    > Why not? I^2*r says that running 75% less current will generate 94% less heat. Thats not the argument, you can do that now with copper cables. Aluminium is a good conductor, but it is reactive, brittle and not as malleable as copper. also, copper has almost half the resistance per meter than aluminium. So even for solid bus bars, it doesn't make that much sense, unless you have structural bus bars.
    - eimrine 4y ago
      > copper has almost half the resistance per meter than aluminium. But 4 times the weight
    - brookst 4y ago
      Most car wiring harnesses are affixed to structural members and don’t need to flex. And twice the resistance doesn’t matter. So you go one gauge bigger. If the material is cheaper, more available, and suitable, that’s fine. We don’t insist on gold wires because they’re “better” than copper. It’s all tradeoffs. I don’t see a reason to be philosophically opposed to aluminum other than “it’s possible to do it wrong”, which is of course also true for copper.
      - KaiserPro 4y ago
        > cheaper, more available, and suitable Indeed, but automotive wiring is subject to intense and persistent vibration and heat cycles. so all those ties become stress points for fatigue to cluster around. I'm not saying its never a good idea to use an aluminium wire loom, but I'm struggling to find a situation where its required
- linsomniac 4y ago
  >You don't want alluminium wires in your car. Why not?
  - jfengel 4y ago
    I assume, for the same reason you don't want them in your house. It expands differently from copper as it warms, and the connections can loosen. If Tesla has switched to aluminum I imagine they've found a way to fix that. Possibly by making the entire electrical system out of aluminum, so that it all expands the same way, or possibly a connector designed to avoid that.
    - linsomniac 4y ago
      The primary reason you don't want aluminum in your house is that homegamers will improperly do repairs, primarily replacing devices (receptacles, switches) with ones that are not rated CO/ALR rated. I doubt that failure will be as likely in the cars. Properly terminated, there is no problem with aluminum wiring in your house. As another replier mentioned, most houses do have aluminum wiring in the run to the house and the run from the meter to the panel, and sometimes in the larger runs like stove and dryer. It's also worth noting that the newer aluminum formulas like Southwire SIMpul, are not like the old aluminum like was installed in my house in the early '70s. But, buyers are still gunshy from the '70s, so copper is generally preferred
- rr888 4y ago
  Copper costs 6x Aluminium and is much rarer + in a car you want to be as lightweight as possible. You need a good reason to avoid it.
benevol 4y ago
[flagged]
- DFHippie 4y ago
  There are different standard spellings, and pronunciations, in different places. In one dialect region it is "aluminium" (but they don't say "platinium" or "molybdenium"). In another it is "aluminum" (but they don't say "titanum" or "cesum"). It is arbitrary in both regions.
bigtex 4y ago
Have they delivered the robotaxis that were promised several years ago?
- manuelmoreale 4y ago
  I don’t see why that’s relevant with the topic of reducing consumption of certain rare elements. Then failing at some of the goals shouldn’t detract from what has been accomplished. And if the end result is just electric cars that don’t use rara elements I think that’s a good thing, even without robotaxis
  - jm4 4y ago
    I assume that the relevance is that Tesla's claims don't count for much until they actually deliver. Elon Musk has a long history of misleading people about Tesla. Whether it's embellishment, overestimation of what they can accomplish, or outright lies is up for debate, but the fact remains that they habitually over-promise and under-deliver. I consider him and his companies to be completely untrustworthy. He could be selling water in the desert and I still would never buy another thing from him.
    - nordsieck 4y ago
      > Elon Musk has a long history of misleading people about Tesla. Whether it's embellishment, overestimation of what they can accomplish, or outright lies is up for debate, but the fact remains that they habitually over-promise and under-deliver. I think that everyone should look on his "forward looking statements" with a higher than normal degree of skepticism. He does seem to pull off a lot of outlandish stuff, though, so it doesn't pay to be too skeptical. > I consider him and his companies to be completely untrustworthy. He could be selling water in the desert and I still would never buy another thing from him. I don't think that that same level of skepticism is warranted towards his statements about what is true today. But then again, I haven't been following him very closely, so maybe his pant are constantly on fire.
    - manuelmoreale 4y ago
      Reading the original post, I assumed all of the things listed (except for one) are things that has been done already and not just promised by Elon. Buy maybe I’m wrong.
roeles 4y ago
> are soon switching to 48V, to further reduce low-voltage copper wiring (copper being a 'medium-rare' metal) In an interview by Munro[1] , Elon Musk previously mentioned the desire to switch to 48V together with the desire to use PoE. Combining data and power over the same wires. [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YAtLTLiqNwg https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YAtLTLiqNwg
throw0101c 4y ago
> - are soon switching to 48V, to further reduce low-voltage copper wiring (copper being a 'medium-rare' metal) The move of automakers to 48V has been in the works for a while: * https://www.autoevolution.com/news/understanding-the-shift-to-48v-systems-happening-in-the-automotive-industry-150157.html https://www.autoevolution.com/news/understanding-the-shift-t... * https://whma.org/overview-of-48-volt-systems-in-the-automotive-industry/ https://whma.org/overview-of-48-volt-systems-in-the-automoti... * https://www.google.com/search?q=48V+cars https://www.google.com/search?q=48V+cars It's just a bit of a co-ordination / chicken-egg problem in that equipment probably has to be to handle 12V and 48V for a while during a transition period.

hulitu 4y ago

> Are any other manufacturers pushing as hard here? Why would they. Most of those things are not sustainable. You don't want alluminium wires in your car.

TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
It is really funny when West is discovering magic of cheap aluminum for wires, while former Eastern Block is ripping aluminum wires from walls because it is no.1 reason for fires.
- jasongill 4y ago
  Aluminum is perfectly fine as a conductor, and perfectly safe. In the USA, we've used aluminum for most of our power transmission and distribution since the beginning of "the grid". Everything from the power plant to the meter at your home is connected with aluminum. Where aluminum causes fires is due to the fact that it expands and contracts more than copper does, and it can oxidize and corrode when not properly cared for (for example, when dissimilar metals are used, or when exposed aluminum wire ends are not properly coated). We can assume that someone at Tesla is familiar with the properties of aluminum and can insure that they are using the right connectors to mitigate these issues. (or at least, we can hope)
  - axus 4y ago
    Perhaps the decrease in reliability was pitched internally as a way to sell more Teslas in the future?
    - brookst 4y ago
      Yes, no class action suit destroying the company could ever come from that little conspiracy.
    - nine_k 4y ago
      Unlikely: buying a replacement car because your previous one burst into flames usually involves staying away from the previous brand.
  - tylerag 4y ago
    The other problem in house wiring is that when you tighten down the screw to attach the aluminum wire to the terminal, the aluminum work hardens, and expansion/contraction/vibration will cause it to break.
- chollida1 4y ago
  > It is really funny when West is discovering magic of cheap aluminum for wires, while former Eastern Block is ripping aluminum wires from walls because it is no.1 reason for fires. Aluminum was used for a short time in the west for household wiring and was quickly outlawed.
  - zip1234 4y ago
    It's commonly used for the main wire into homes. As long as it is sized properly and uses the appropriate connections it is fine.
newaccount74 4y ago
I would assume those "high voltage conductors" are more like rigid bus bars, and not flexible wires. Edit: Judging by the picture on this article [1] I am wrong. [1]: https://hackaday.com/2022/01/13/exploring-tesla-model-s-high-voltage-cabling/ https://hackaday.com/2022/01/13/exploring-tesla-model-s-high...
- schiffern 4y ago
  Tesla does use traditional stranded copper too, but the aluminum I referenced is indeed a rigid bus bar. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35014013 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35014013
brookst 4y ago
> You don't want alluminium wires in your car Why not? I^2*r says that running 75% less current will generate 94% less heat. Existing copper wires would be a disaster if cars ran on a 3V system. Aluminum at 48V will be fine, as long as it’s sized appropriately the same way copper is today.
- KaiserPro 4y ago
  > Why not? I^2*r says that running 75% less current will generate 94% less heat. Thats not the argument, you can do that now with copper cables. Aluminium is a good conductor, but it is reactive, brittle and not as malleable as copper. also, copper has almost half the resistance per meter than aluminium. So even for solid bus bars, it doesn't make that much sense, unless you have structural bus bars.
  - eimrine 4y ago
    > copper has almost half the resistance per meter than aluminium. But 4 times the weight
  - brookst 4y ago
    Most car wiring harnesses are affixed to structural members and don’t need to flex. And twice the resistance doesn’t matter. So you go one gauge bigger. If the material is cheaper, more available, and suitable, that’s fine. We don’t insist on gold wires because they’re “better” than copper. It’s all tradeoffs. I don’t see a reason to be philosophically opposed to aluminum other than “it’s possible to do it wrong”, which is of course also true for copper.
    - KaiserPro 4y ago
      > cheaper, more available, and suitable Indeed, but automotive wiring is subject to intense and persistent vibration and heat cycles. so all those ties become stress points for fatigue to cluster around. I'm not saying its never a good idea to use an aluminium wire loom, but I'm struggling to find a situation where its required
linsomniac 4y ago
>You don't want alluminium wires in your car. Why not?
- jfengel 4y ago
  I assume, for the same reason you don't want them in your house. It expands differently from copper as it warms, and the connections can loosen. If Tesla has switched to aluminum I imagine they've found a way to fix that. Possibly by making the entire electrical system out of aluminum, so that it all expands the same way, or possibly a connector designed to avoid that.
  - linsomniac 4y ago
    The primary reason you don't want aluminum in your house is that homegamers will improperly do repairs, primarily replacing devices (receptacles, switches) with ones that are not rated CO/ALR rated. I doubt that failure will be as likely in the cars. Properly terminated, there is no problem with aluminum wiring in your house. As another replier mentioned, most houses do have aluminum wiring in the run to the house and the run from the meter to the panel, and sometimes in the larger runs like stove and dryer. It's also worth noting that the newer aluminum formulas like Southwire SIMpul, are not like the old aluminum like was installed in my house in the early '70s. But, buyers are still gunshy from the '70s, so copper is generally preferred
rr888 4y ago
Copper costs 6x Aluminium and is much rarer + in a car you want to be as lightweight as possible. You need a good reason to avoid it.

benevol 4y ago

[flagged]

DFHippie 4y ago
There are different standard spellings, and pronunciations, in different places. In one dialect region it is "aluminium" (but they don't say "platinium" or "molybdenium"). In another it is "aluminum" (but they don't say "titanum" or "cesum"). It is arbitrary in both regions.

bigtex 4y ago

Have they delivered the robotaxis that were promised several years ago?

manuelmoreale 4y ago
I don’t see why that’s relevant with the topic of reducing consumption of certain rare elements. Then failing at some of the goals shouldn’t detract from what has been accomplished. And if the end result is just electric cars that don’t use rara elements I think that’s a good thing, even without robotaxis
- jm4 4y ago
  I assume that the relevance is that Tesla's claims don't count for much until they actually deliver. Elon Musk has a long history of misleading people about Tesla. Whether it's embellishment, overestimation of what they can accomplish, or outright lies is up for debate, but the fact remains that they habitually over-promise and under-deliver. I consider him and his companies to be completely untrustworthy. He could be selling water in the desert and I still would never buy another thing from him.
  - nordsieck 4y ago
    > Elon Musk has a long history of misleading people about Tesla. Whether it's embellishment, overestimation of what they can accomplish, or outright lies is up for debate, but the fact remains that they habitually over-promise and under-deliver. I think that everyone should look on his "forward looking statements" with a higher than normal degree of skepticism. He does seem to pull off a lot of outlandish stuff, though, so it doesn't pay to be too skeptical. > I consider him and his companies to be completely untrustworthy. He could be selling water in the desert and I still would never buy another thing from him. I don't think that that same level of skepticism is warranted towards his statements about what is true today. But then again, I haven't been following him very closely, so maybe his pant are constantly on fire.
  - manuelmoreale 4y ago
    Reading the original post, I assumed all of the things listed (except for one) are things that has been done already and not just promised by Elon. Buy maybe I’m wrong.

roeles 4y ago

> are soon switching to 48V, to further reduce low-voltage copper wiring (copper being a 'medium-rare' metal) In an interview by Munro[1] , Elon Musk previously mentioned the desire to switch to 48V together with the desire to use PoE. Combining data and power over the same wires. [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YAtLTLiqNwg https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YAtLTLiqNwg

throw0101c 4y ago

> - are soon switching to 48V, to further reduce low-voltage copper wiring (copper being a 'medium-rare' metal) The move of automakers to 48V has been in the works for a while: * https://www.autoevolution.com/news/understanding-the-shift-to-48v-systems-happening-in-the-automotive-industry-150157.html https://www.autoevolution.com/news/understanding-the-shift-t... * https://whma.org/overview-of-48-volt-systems-in-the-automotive-industry/ https://whma.org/overview-of-48-volt-systems-in-the-automoti... * https://www.google.com/search?q=48V+cars https://www.google.com/search?q=48V+cars It's just a bit of a co-ordination / chicken-egg problem in that equipment probably has to be to handle 12V and 48V for a while during a transition period.