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Lemon-derived nanoparticles block the progression of kidney stones
- dam_broke_it 4y agoBesides lemon juice or apple cider vinegar, any other recommendations??
- throwanem 4y agoTime I made a habit of drinking lemonade - a suggestion I'd have expected from my urologist, but not one I'm sorry to have run across whatever the source.
- kldavis4 4y agoYes, it's strange that my urologist has never mentioned it either. I wonder if this result applies to all types of kidney stones or just calcium oxalate.
- coffeeshopgoth 4y agoA preventative like this is good to know, but, really, all you need to do is drink a lot of water through the day. That is the number one way to avoid a kidney stone. I have had a urologist say, "Hell, you can drink enough beer, and you should be good." - Though, if you are prone to gout (your body generally likes to make crystals), beer ain't a great choice.
- Sindisil 4y agoThat is certainly not "all you need to do". It is good, and helpful, but if a person is prone to stones, it's often not enough on its own.
- ChatGTP 4y agoAlso I just hate drinking water unless it’s hot. I know doctors tell us to chug water but it’s just tiring sometimes. In winter for example, I just don’t feel thirsty and I just get bored heating water, making time to drink it etc. So yeah, drinking 2-4 litres of water can feel unnatural to me.
- throwanem 4y agoI mean, ideally you don't do it all at once, but if you can chug a pint of beer then you can chug a pint of water, too. Thirst is weird. I find it manifests as an unaccountable malaise and lack of focus well before I begin to perceive the sensation I understand as thirstiness per se.
- ChatGTP 4y agoCompletely agree , If I’m ever feeling cloudy, foggy, down, extremely tired during the day I usually feel better almost immediately after 2 glasses of water. Yes I know what you mean, you don’t have to drink it all at once, but I still get bored having to drink. It’s just. Personal thing I guess. Kind of have to force water into my system.
- throwanem 4y agoBelieve me when I say that I make strong habits of anything and everything I come across, including hydration, that offers a reasonable prospect of reducing the chance I will have another kidney stone.
- 1letterunixname 4y agoSee a urologist because self-diagnosis has a fool for a patient.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- 1letterunixname 4y agoMaybe because unscientific, folk advice on the internet isn't a replacement for evidence-based medicine.
- qskousen 4y agoI drink lemonade regularly (I make my own), but to prevent heartburn, as lemon turns into a base in your stomach and is very helpful with heartburn. Now knowing that it is also good for kidney stone prevention just puts the cherry on top!
- throwanem 4y agoIt looks [1] like limes have about as much citric acid, so cherry limeade should be as good an option, too! [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2637791/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2637791/
- 1letterunixname 4y agoInstead of dissolving tooth enamel, working on cavities, and type-2 diabetes perhaps take magnesium citrate in reasonable amounts in pill form. There is no sense to drinking sugar water.
- DennisP 4y agoCan you link a study showing that magnesium citrate pills block the progression of kidney stones? If not, I'll stick with lemonade, which does have such a study. I don't need to put sugar in it.
- arcanemachiner 4y ago> lemon turns into a base in your stomach This doesn't make any sense to me. How can two acids combine to create a base?
- dawnerd 4y agoThinking the same. Lemonade gives me severe heartburn. Hurts just thinking about what a glass would do.
- 1letterunixname 4y agoYou're trying to make sense out of pseudoscience quackery. Please don't.
- 1letterunixname 4y agoA good way to dissolve your enamel and get cavities. See a urologist instead.
- throwanem 4y ago...he said, in direct response to a comment which includes the phrase "my urologist." I can see that you know how to produce language, albeit by all appearances rarely at best to worthwhile effect. Do you know at all how to consume it? Or is jumping to wrong conclusions and then being snide about them the only trick you have?
- jareklupinski 4y agoI hope Realemon has the same nanoparticles I can drink that stuff with seltzer forever
- nrau 4y agoI got my first and so far only (fingers crossed!) kidney stone five years ago. At that time I started drinking lemon juice with hot water to start each day before consuming anything else, and it has so far kept any recurrence of kidney stones away. I really do believe the lemon juice has been key for me in this regard, and it is in any case a very healthy thing to do daily anyways (known and practiced by other cultures around the world). Most folks who have kidney stones get them again and again, and anything that can help prevent this very painful event is critical. For anyone who does unfortunately experience kidney stones I highly recommend you try this option.
- mrtweetyhack 4y ago[dead]
- zadler 4y agoDid you have the kidney stones removed the first time round?
- nrau 4y agoFortunately I passed the stone in about 5 days. That's the best possible outcome as painful as that can be. I started the lemon juice about 3 days into the event and I do think it helped already in making the stone a bit smaller and getting it out of my body.
- jv22222 4y agoI opted for surgery on my 2nd stone and it was a terrible mistake IMHO I should have tried to let it pass. The first was painful but not THAT bad. Worst experience I've ever had. Now when I get a tinge of pain I immediately take Chanca Piedra and it seems to have helped for past few years, no reoccurrence, but could just be anecdotal & conicendental.
- throwanem 4y agoWhat procedure, and what was a mistake about it? I've had to have a 5mm stone removed endoscopically, and that didn't seem to do me any harm, although I was anesthetized for the procedure - if that's the difference, then say no more, as I'm sure it would have been fairly agonizing if I'd been aware of what was going on at the time.
- coffeeshopgoth 4y agoPretty good to know. For those of you that get gout and don't know about it, cherry juice is a good preventative and useful if you are having an attack. I will be making cherry lemonade a staple...
- zoklet-enjoyer 4y agoThanks for the tip! I've had a few bouts of gout the last 3ish years. The first time it happened I thought I broke my toe!
- manaskarekar 4y agoBand: Bouts of Gout. Song: I thought I broke my toe. Album: The last 3-ish years.
- zoklet-enjoyer 4y agoBeautiful
- slillibri 4y agoI wonder if C.C. Lemon counts? It contains lemon juice and, in my opinion, is the best thing ever.
- ecommerceguy 4y agofyi March is National Kidney Month - https://www.kidney.org/content/national-kidney-month https://www.kidney.org/content/national-kidney-month
- ChatGTP 4y agoDoes anyone know if you can drink something to reduce the size of an existing stone ? I know it’s likely a “no”, but any novel treatments on the horizon ? I’ve received EWS and it’s not fun, did seem to reduce the size of a big stone I had though, 20mm
- bitL 4y agoTake potassium citrate; eventually, drink a lot of beer.
- sleepybrett 4y agoMy urologist suggested that apple cider vinegar can help break up some types of stones. I usually do an oz or so in a mug of hot water. Lemon juice goes into my water bottle whenever I refill it.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- olliej 4y agoOh wow actually reasonable use of “lemon derived” - I expected the usual “heavily processed with innumerable chemical reactions we converted oil from lemons into a new structure that in practice/volume would require starting with petroleum byproducts”. This seems to be “we filtered these particles from lemonade and compressed them into pills to give to rats” That said there’s also the required “in rats” missing from the headline, and I’m guessing the rats used are intentionally bred to get kidney stones, and fed a diet that encourages kidney stones, so the applicability to humans in normal cases isn’t a give . (Recalling the cranberry vs UTIs bs of a few years back)
- bitL 4y agoAre those particles containing potassium citrate? Lemon is high in potassium and its citrate is known to dissolve existing kidney stones.
- 1letterunixname 4y agoFalse, fraudulent medical advice. Nothing can dissolve a kidney stone.
- bitL 4y agohttps://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20576821/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20576821/
- andrewflnr 4y ago> Treatment with KC is effective in preventing renal stones Not dissolving existing ones. At least not that source.
- bitL 4y agoOK, a doctor told me about taking it for 6 months to dissolve smaller stones but I can't find any medical research talking about it dissolving them, so let's assume it's for prevention only.
- johnohara 4y agoA honey and lemon tea is often recommended as an aid to digestion. To be taken first thing in the morning prior to breakfast.
- eigenvalue 4y agoOne of the most painful things I’ve ever experienced. I let myself get way too dehydrated while exercising on a very hot summer day, which brought it about (though I was obviously susceptible to them). I started hydrating a lot more and taking potassium supplements and luckily haven’t had them since. Thankfully I went to a great hospital, and the staff there knew how painful the condition is, so there was only around 15 minutes between when I arrived at the ER and when I had an IV of morphine in my arm.
- sgtnoodle 4y agoDo you to think crystals can form that quickly to have been caused by a single day of dehydration? I had one a couple years ago. My theory is that I had accumulated crystalization the year prior. I had a heart nerve issue and my heart rate was significantly reduced for several months, getting as bad as 30 bpm for a couple weeks. Normally it's about 80 bpm. My kidneys were definitely underperforming as indicated by blood labs performed when I ended up in the ED/ICU with "total heart block". With that problem resolved, my kidneys were happy again and the crystals presumably started to gradually dissolve. My urologist dismissed my theory completely, but I've been generally disappointed by my experience working with them and I am on the verge of finding a new provider. My most recent ultrasound shows that the kidney that had the stone pass is totally clear, while the other kidney still has some crystalization.
- eigenvalue 4y agoI actually don’t know much about it from a medical standpoint. But just from a pure Bayesian reasoning it seems overwhelmingly likely to me that it was the precipitating cause, since I never had it before that. I do think most doctors are very weak at identifying or even understanding patterns that are very unusual and which they haven’t seen before or read about. They generally don’t rely on first principles thinking but reason through pattern matching and referencing their training and experience.
- bmurphy1976 4y agoThey take time to build up. You probably knocked it loose during your exercise regimen and it got stuck in a new much worse place. I get them regularly and I swear there are times where I feel a tightness that I attribute to one getting built up. Then one day the pain comes.
- pubby 4y agoTwo fun facts about kidney stones: 1) Roller coasters help dislodge and pass kidney stones because of their high-intensity jerky motions. 2) Although calcium supplements increase the risk of kidney stones, dietary calcium seems to reduce it.
- malloci 4y agoI’ve known two people who have had kidney stones and I don’t think either of them would have been able to withstand the pain from the stone enough to go on a rollercoaster. Then again, maybe the promise of ending the pain will give enough motivation to grit it out.
- sleepybrett 4y agoI don't find they, at least the three I've passed, as particularly painful. It's more like an intense discomfort. I find myself in a cycle of pacing, laying down and sitting (mostly on the toilet, you feel like you have to pee constantly). It's like discomfort limbo.
- qup 4y agoBased on everyone else I've ever spoken with who had kidney stones (about six people), your experience is unusual. Several have described it as the worst experience of their life, including one who has it recur a couple of times per year.
- sleepybrett 4y agoIt's possible that I've been very lucky, but I also have a pretty high pain threshold when it comes to other things... I blew my Achilles and walked around on it for days thinking I sprained an ankle. I will admit to an almost altered state of consciousness while passing a stone though that might have been tied to not really being able to sleep for days.
- lll-o-lll 4y agoI think you’ve just been lucky. For me this was like being kicked in the balls. Except continually, for five days straight. It’s organ pain, the worst of pains. My doctor said that research had shown it to be worse than birth pains (although my wife vehemently disagrees with this). Intense discomfort doesn’t begin to describe it.
- user3939382 4y agoWhat’s the difference between a nano particle and a molecule?
- tanseydavid 4y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanoparticle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanoparticle
- user3939382 4y agoThe answer to my question is 6 paragraphs into that article: > Being at the transition between bulk materials and atomic or molecular structures, they often exhibit phenomena that are not observed at either scale.
- pama 4y agoHow does one induce more such nano particles to a preparation starting from a lemon? I don’t have a centrifuge, but is there a way to increase the concentration of such nanoparticles by using kitchen tools?
- daguava 4y ago[dead]
- darkerside 4y agoI'm a little astounded that there hasn't been a more effective physical intervention invented to handle kidney stones and gout. It seems like there should be a way to use high intensity ultrasound waves or something similar to break them up.
- kevinak 4y agoFunnily enough using ultrasound is actually a pretty common treatment: https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/treatment-tests-and-therapies/lithotripsy https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/treatment-tests-and-t...
- car 4y agoThe procedure is called extracorporeal shock wave lithotripsy. The idea was seeded by the observation during WWII that under water explosions caused organ rupture in survivors of ship sinkings that were in the water. Dornier makes them: https://www.dornier.com/products/ https://www.dornier.com/products/
- jillesvangurp 4y agoUltra sound is pretty effective and a common treatment. Basically breaks the stones up and you pass them on. My father had treatment for this some time ago and I wouldn't be surprised if I have to deal with this at some point either. Lemons are nice in any case so consuming a bit more of those is not a burden for me. You can work them into food and beverages in all sorts of ways. Probably you should be careful with sugary drinks like lemonade. I wonder what's so special about lemons vs. e.g. oranges, tangerines, grapefruits, etc.
- beilabs 4y agoThis is timely. I'm in hospital having just removed a 9.4mm stone from one kidney and some stones from the other. I don't want to go though this again.
- thangalin 4y agohttps://www.researchgate.net/publication/368169226_Lemon-Derived_Extracellular_Vesicle-like_Nanoparticles_Block_the_Progression_of_Kidney_Stones_by_Antagonizing_Endoplasmic_Reticulum_Stress_in_Renal_Tubular_Cells/link/63dfaf1dc97bd76a826ec5bb/download https://www.researchgate.net/publication/368169226_Lemon-Der...
- or113 4y agoAsk HN: I have Sialolithiasis, which is like kidney stones but in the upper throat/jaw. Any research like that? recommendations?
- aaron695 4y agoHere's my goat with urinary stones - https://imgur.com/a/q7K26Z5 https://imgur.com/a/q7K26Z5 They paw the ground when in pain. Stones can kill in 24 hours. A lot of money later he was ok. We fed him ammonium chloride in case it was a struvite a phosphorus based stone (magnesium ammonium phosphate) But in the end it was a calcium based stone which requires an operation, which can be deadly and costly, so this is interesting. Full paper here - https://www.researchgate.net/publication/368169226_Lemon-Derived_Extracellular_Vesicle-like_Nanoparticles_Block_the_Progression_of_Kidney_Stones_by_Antagonizing_Endoplasmic_Reticulum_Stress_in_Renal_Tubular_Cells https://www.researchgate.net/publication/368169226_Lemon-Der... But lemons will make struvite's worse since they are alkalizing and you need acidic. (This is just rough in my head, research the medical stuff properly) The sooner we have cheap devices that can see inside bodies the better.
- trallnag 4y agoCool goat
- DantesKite 4y agoChanca Piedra works well too for kidney stones, UTI’s, and gallstones. At least in my experience and people I’ve suggested it to, it seems to help significantly. Worth a shot if you’ve tried a few things that haven’t helped.
- gchokov 4y agoI just passed 6mm kidney stone - the stone itself travelled its way out for 2 months. It’s calcium oxidate based, so no chance of easy dissolving.. if it’s possible at all. I’ve had maybe about 4-5 days of strong, sometimes unbearable pain that I was taking painkillers for (without that much an effect..). Then few weeks of pain low down there.. Doctor wanted to give it a try for a “Via naturalis” passing, to which I agreed (no regrets). I have few more stones, with smaller sizes now... My doctors always recommended me beer with some lemon in it. Once in the past, I passed a kidney stone for less than 24h of the first pain (about 4mm) right after drinking 3 liters of beer. This whole thing sucks.
- goddstream 4y agoI'm a veteran calcium oxalate stone former; I've ended up in hospital three times because of them, and my last scan showed I currently am carrying 16 of them, (plus 3 bonus bladder stones). I'd thought I'd pass on what I've learned in the last 30 years; if helps one person, then I've been useful. 1. Drink lots of water (actually a very dilute lime juice/cranberry juice mix). I aim for 4 litres/1 gallon a day, more in hot weather. 2. Don't drink spirits (specifically - note to self - half a bottle of bourbon, no matter how delicious). They cause some weird kind of dehydration, which makes the stones painful. 3. If you start getting discomfort from a stone, drink more water. It seems to 'float' them somehow, and can usually make the discomfort go away. 4. The stones act like little breeding grounds for bacteria. So, if you have stones you will be prone to chronic infections. If you are a chap, then this can lead to chronic bacterial prostatitus, which can cause all manner of problems, leading to a having a catheter fitted. But, if you have bladder stones, the stones will break the little plastic widget that stops the catheter from falling out, which means it has to be refitted. So, you may need to take a low-level antibiotic like nitrofuratoin (there is some evidence that cranberry juice can also help, because it reduces the stickiness of bacteria). 5. If you are passing a stone, and they offer you morphine, decline it and hold out for something more powerful. Morphine seems to contract the tubes, only offers partial relief, and makes the problem worse in my experience. I once had an IM injection of (something beginning with pent~ - I wasn't in the mood to take notes at the time) which worked very well. 6. Avoid foods containing high oxalate levels, like spinach. 7. Don't take medical advice from strangers on the internet (like me).
- witnesser2 4y agosolute from a private; are you not mentioning flo-max (if not spelled wrongly)? I got the so far first stone out by it like almost effortless.
- gchokov 4y agoSimilar stones here, all of the advices are spot on.
- noduerme 4y agoCalcium stones run all along the male side of my family too.. and I've had a few. The notion to me that lemonade would be helpful is counterintuitive. Generally we've come to understand that high doses of Vitamin C are part of the problem, because that's been something the men in my family do to ward off sickness - but my father, who took 5000 milligrams of C a day for years, always got the worst stones of all. >> 2. Don't drink spirits. This is probably true, but it contravenes the one piece of hard-won family folk wisdom that has helped me. Our method of removing kidney stones is as follows: 1. Go to a bar, take a piss if you can, then sit and order a Guinness. 2. Order 5 more Guinnesses and make a concerted effort to drink them all without taking a piss. Wait until you're absolutely desperate. 3. Go to the men's room and eject the stone. [the intoxication helps numb it, too]. I've watched my father pass them in the hospital; I remember remarkably twiddling one of his kidney stones in my hand as we drove him home, it was iridescent white and about the size of a shriveled pea. So far, though, this method hasn't failed me and I've yet to be hospitalized.
- nnurmanov 4y agoI remember some urologist’s advice, she advised drinking a shot of cognac and two bottles of beer. The guy was having too many stones.
- zeristor 4y agoI am not medically trained, and have only read up on kidney stones having seen a friend deal with them over several months. No mention here of Shockwave lithotripsy to working breaking up the stones, obviously prevention is better than cure but at least in the NHS in the UK they can attempt to shatter the stones. Also there’s several different type of kidney stones, of which 80% are Calcium: https://www.healthhub.sg/a-z/diseases-and-conditions/629/kidney-stones https://www.healthhub.sg/a-z/diseases-and-conditions/629/kid...
- zeristor 4y agoI guess a key point is to drink lemonade made from lemons, I’d imagine some lemonades use synthetic lemony chemicals. Gives a new option for the old saying “If someone gives you Lemons, use them to treat kidney stones”
- _a_a_a_ 4y agoQuestion to stone-havers, wouldn't using tamsulosin/flomax make sense when trying to pass stones. I'm surprised to see only one mention to this in all the comments here. Perhaps it's not as helpful as I'd expect?
- Sindisil 4y agoI do usually take Tamulosin when a stone starts playing road music. It seems to help, especially with middling and larger (say 4mm and up) but not as much as upping my liquid intake even more than usual. I've passed several without it and many with, and judge it to be worth keeping on hand. Biggest thing for me has been to try to avoid additional formation (though I know from my annual imaging that I have at least 6 or 7 of my little buddies laying in wait). Citric acid, increased liquid intake, reduced intake of high oxalate foods (and/or taking calcium citrate or high calcium foods at the same time), trying not to hold my pee unnecessarily, and a prescription for hydrocholorothiazide have together greatly reduced my kidney stone formation. I got by with only a couple little ones last calendar year, and only one middling one (~4mm) so far this year. Don't take any of that as medical advice, of course.
- pvaldes 4y agoIn some types a lithotrity machine can do wonders. Is basically being bombed with ultrasounds while taking a long bath, so could even be doable to DIY at home if you have some maker skills and for some reason can't go to a doctor. The main concern should be to take serious care of not being electrocuted, put the speaker far and out of the water, protect your ears and assure that everything is well isolated. Using a 12 volt car battery as source of power could add a lot of safety. Read a book for some time and then urinate into a piece of cloth in a strainer to see if it collects some sand. Rinse and repeat after some resting days for several weeks. Or you can go to a discotheque
- dtgriscom 4y agoA DIY lithotripsy machine sounds like a reeeallly bad idea...
- Earwig 4y agoI don't know if this comment is intended seriously but just to be clear. Lithotripsy can cause acute tissue damage and long-term loss of kidney function.[1] The shock waves need to be carefully targeted at the stone and for the correct amount of time to reduce the risk of this, typically with X-ray or ultrasound. You can absolutely not do this at home! [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2900184/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2900184/
- pvaldes 4y ago"It appears that what was once considered to be an entirely safe means to eliminate renal stones can elicit potentially severe unintended consequences" Doh! I stand corrected then. Thank you for the info
- el_don_almighty 4y agoPasteurized lemon juice or fresh squeezed? For example, when tenderizing meat with pineapple or lime, only fresh squeezed retains the enzymes that break down connective muscle tissue. Cans of pasteurized fruit or juice have no effect. I wonder if this effect requires the same fresh source.