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You realize this is the same state that passed a law just to punish Disney for speaking out against the “Don’t say Gay” law? I’m repeatedly amazed how ass back

You realize this is the same state that passed a law just to punish Disney for speaking out against the “Don’t say Gay” law? I’m repeatedly amazed how ass backwards Desantis and the entire state legislation is in Florida (my current state) compared to Brian Kemp and the Georgia legislation is (my former state until last year). And just in case people don’t know, they are both Republicans.

zmgsabst 4y ago
The bill which prohibits discussing sexuality with children under nine? Shock. Gasp. Horror. I think we do real damage to LGBT causes when we allow their sexuality to be a pretense for inappropriate conduct with children — such as misrepresenting a bill saying you can’t discuss sexuality with young children as “Don’t Say Gay”. You’re portraying LGBT people as pedophiles to score cheap political points — and Disney fell for the same trap, as their punishment is for sexualizing children… and nothing to do with LGBT rights.
- scarface74 4y ago
  So Desantis “punished” Disney for “sexualizing children” and not for publicly condemning the law? But the law as it is actually used would never punish a man for saying he went on vacation with his wife. But would definitely punish a man for saying he went on vacation with his husband to children. By the way, I live in Orlando, so I’m not a tight jean wearing hipster living in California who only knows what I hear from the National news. https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/florida-teacher-allegedly-fired-discussing-sexuality-students-rcna27656 https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/florida-teacher-all... https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-politics-and-policy/-cannot-teach-florida-lgbtq-educators-fear-fallout-new-school-law-rcna22106 https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-politics-and-policy/-can...
  - zmgsabst 4y ago
    Then you should get informed about what the law actually does — rather than incorrect hypotheticals. Let’s save outrage for what actually happens, not our fantasies. And yes — Disney publicly condemned a law protecting children from inappropriate conduct; ie, Disney publicly came out in favor of sexual discussions with children. That’s what led to consequences. - - - - - Your first example is about a teacher who was fired before this for reasons related to not following the curriculum. But it correctly describes this law: > Officially titled the Parental Rights in Education bill, the legislation bans teaching about sexual orientation or gender identity “in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards.” What about that do you specifically object to?
    - scarface74 4y ago
      So now you think that the government should “punish” companies who speak out against laws? Do you really think the law will be used against teaching about straight couples?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- rbetts 4y ago
  The bill applies to all age groups. It bans discussion of gender for children less than 10. And also prohibits instruction "in a manner that is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards". The law makes it illegal for a young child with gay parents to draw a family picture and discuss it in classroom.
  - zmgsabst 4y ago
    No it doesn’t. What it does is what you actually cited: > prohibits instruction "in a manner that is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards" I think it’s telling that you made up a fantasy about “kids with gay parents can’t draw their family!” rather than the actual content — which I cited. This is what I mean by conflating gay rights with inappropriate conduct with children.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      Yes and laws against “sodomy” weren’t meant to target gay people. Do you really think parents would use the law to target a man talking about being married to a woman and not a man married to a man.
      - zmgsabst 4y ago
        Let’s save our outrage for things that actually happen. But yes — I think many parents would be uncomfortable taking children to burlesque shows, rather than drag shows. And similarly uncomfortable with a heterosexual teacher who discussed their sexuality in the way that this prohibits. We don’t teach young kids about sexuality or gender identity at a young age, regardless. That’s not the job of school teachers.
        scarface74 4y ago
        These same people would never object to a teacher talking about a “normal” heterosexual couple. They don’t just object to teachers talking about their sexuality. They object to admitting that gay people exists - ie a man saying “I went to the movies with my husband”.
- tomrod 4y ago
  > inappropriate conduct with children Please specify, precisely, what can and cannot be discussed within the bounds of universal appropriateness with children under the age of 10. If your response is not universal, then you simply reveal that the law under discussion is authoritarian and has no business existing. Children under the age of 10 can be victims of abuse. Most kids by age 10 have a rough idea about the mechanics of sex. Children can live in homes with loved ones who are gay, lesbian, transgender, asexual, intersex, queer, and more. Children may themselves be homosexual and realize this about themselves before age 10. An authoritarian approach is to ban discussion and attempt to wrest control in domains the state has no business being in. A wiser approach is to lay down recommended principles, and allow common law to adopt those which actually are useful for the society of the governed.
  - zmgsabst 4y ago
    The job of government is to establish common norms for appropriate behavior — from murder to inappropriate conduct with children. There is no universal morality and this is within the bounds of what laws already do: Regulate the conduct of a licensed profession in their conduct with children. I agree the state has no business in this area — which is why this law prohibits certain conduct at places the state obligates children to attend. Nobody is saying children can’t have those things, discuss them with families, friends, etc. This is a restriction on teachers, to maintain professional behavior with young children.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      So do you think the same people would object to “good Christian values”? Teaching about the “traditional nuclear family”?
    - tomrod 4y ago
      Thanks for comfirming the point that the universality of the bill in unachievable, thus making the don't say gay bill straight up bad, authoritatian policy.
the_only_law 4y ago
> I’m repeatedly amazed how ass backwards Desantis and the entire state legislation is in Florida (my current state) compared to Brian Kemp and the Georgia legislation is (my former state until last year). Probably not as many right wing carpetbaggers in Georgia yet.
- scarface74 4y ago
  Georgia is very much a red state. It barely voted for Biden in 2020 and probably would have voted for any normal Republican and voted Democratic for the Senate twice only because of Trump’s meddling. Most of the Georgia Republican governors in my adult lifetime have been what now are referred to as “rhinos”. Please note the sarcasm,
gzer0 4y ago
And then Disney responded to Desantis by saying that Florida would have to pay nearly $1 billion to dissolve Reedy Creek (the special district under contention) [1]. [1] https://www.npr.org/2022/04/28/1095225258/disney-world-florida-debt https://www.npr.org/2022/04/28/1095225258/disney-world-flori...
- rascul 4y ago
  There have been related events since. In November, the CEO who had provided the criticism to the Don't Say Gay bill was fired. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/21/disney-board-reached-out-to-iger-friday-after-concerns-over-earnings.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/21/disney-board-reached-out-to-... Last month, Florida took over the Reedy Creek board, changed the name, and removed some of their powers. https://www.flgov.com/2023/02/27/governor-ron-desantis-signs-legislation-ending-the-corporate-kingdom-of-walt-disney-world/ https://www.flgov.com/2023/02/27/governor-ron-desantis-signs... There's probably other relevant stuff since April last year that I'm not aware of also. I'm not authoritative.

zmgsabst 4y ago

The bill which prohibits discussing sexuality with children under nine? Shock. Gasp. Horror. I think we do real damage to LGBT causes when we allow their sexuality to be a pretense for inappropriate conduct with children — such as misrepresenting a bill saying you can’t discuss sexuality with young children as “Don’t Say Gay”. You’re portraying LGBT people as pedophiles to score cheap political points — and Disney fell for the same trap, as their punishment is for sexualizing children… and nothing to do with LGBT rights.

scarface74 4y ago
So Desantis “punished” Disney for “sexualizing children” and not for publicly condemning the law? But the law as it is actually used would never punish a man for saying he went on vacation with his wife. But would definitely punish a man for saying he went on vacation with his husband to children. By the way, I live in Orlando, so I’m not a tight jean wearing hipster living in California who only knows what I hear from the National news. https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/florida-teacher-allegedly-fired-discussing-sexuality-students-rcna27656 https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/florida-teacher-all... https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-politics-and-policy/-cannot-teach-florida-lgbtq-educators-fear-fallout-new-school-law-rcna22106 https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-politics-and-policy/-can...
- zmgsabst 4y ago
  Then you should get informed about what the law actually does — rather than incorrect hypotheticals. Let’s save outrage for what actually happens, not our fantasies. And yes — Disney publicly condemned a law protecting children from inappropriate conduct; ie, Disney publicly came out in favor of sexual discussions with children. That’s what led to consequences. - - - - - Your first example is about a teacher who was fired before this for reasons related to not following the curriculum. But it correctly describes this law: > Officially titled the Parental Rights in Education bill, the legislation bans teaching about sexual orientation or gender identity “in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards.” What about that do you specifically object to?
  - scarface74 4y ago
    So now you think that the government should “punish” companies who speak out against laws? Do you really think the law will be used against teaching about straight couples?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
rbetts 4y ago
The bill applies to all age groups. It bans discussion of gender for children less than 10. And also prohibits instruction "in a manner that is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards". The law makes it illegal for a young child with gay parents to draw a family picture and discuss it in classroom.
- zmgsabst 4y ago
  No it doesn’t. What it does is what you actually cited: > prohibits instruction "in a manner that is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards" I think it’s telling that you made up a fantasy about “kids with gay parents can’t draw their family!” rather than the actual content — which I cited. This is what I mean by conflating gay rights with inappropriate conduct with children.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    Yes and laws against “sodomy” weren’t meant to target gay people. Do you really think parents would use the law to target a man talking about being married to a woman and not a man married to a man.
    - zmgsabst 4y ago
      Let’s save our outrage for things that actually happen. But yes — I think many parents would be uncomfortable taking children to burlesque shows, rather than drag shows. And similarly uncomfortable with a heterosexual teacher who discussed their sexuality in the way that this prohibits. We don’t teach young kids about sexuality or gender identity at a young age, regardless. That’s not the job of school teachers.
      - scarface74 4y ago
        These same people would never object to a teacher talking about a “normal” heterosexual couple. They don’t just object to teachers talking about their sexuality. They object to admitting that gay people exists - ie a man saying “I went to the movies with my husband”.
tomrod 4y ago
> inappropriate conduct with children Please specify, precisely, what can and cannot be discussed within the bounds of universal appropriateness with children under the age of 10. If your response is not universal, then you simply reveal that the law under discussion is authoritarian and has no business existing. Children under the age of 10 can be victims of abuse. Most kids by age 10 have a rough idea about the mechanics of sex. Children can live in homes with loved ones who are gay, lesbian, transgender, asexual, intersex, queer, and more. Children may themselves be homosexual and realize this about themselves before age 10. An authoritarian approach is to ban discussion and attempt to wrest control in domains the state has no business being in. A wiser approach is to lay down recommended principles, and allow common law to adopt those which actually are useful for the society of the governed.
- zmgsabst 4y ago
  The job of government is to establish common norms for appropriate behavior — from murder to inappropriate conduct with children. There is no universal morality and this is within the bounds of what laws already do: Regulate the conduct of a licensed profession in their conduct with children. I agree the state has no business in this area — which is why this law prohibits certain conduct at places the state obligates children to attend. Nobody is saying children can’t have those things, discuss them with families, friends, etc. This is a restriction on teachers, to maintain professional behavior with young children.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    So do you think the same people would object to “good Christian values”? Teaching about the “traditional nuclear family”?
  - tomrod 4y ago
    Thanks for comfirming the point that the universality of the bill in unachievable, thus making the don't say gay bill straight up bad, authoritatian policy.

the_only_law 4y ago

> I’m repeatedly amazed how ass backwards Desantis and the entire state legislation is in Florida (my current state) compared to Brian Kemp and the Georgia legislation is (my former state until last year). Probably not as many right wing carpetbaggers in Georgia yet.

scarface74 4y ago
Georgia is very much a red state. It barely voted for Biden in 2020 and probably would have voted for any normal Republican and voted Democratic for the Senate twice only because of Trump’s meddling. Most of the Georgia Republican governors in my adult lifetime have been what now are referred to as “rhinos”. Please note the sarcasm,

gzer0 4y ago

And then Disney responded to Desantis by saying that Florida would have to pay nearly $1 billion to dissolve Reedy Creek (the special district under contention) [1]. [1] https://www.npr.org/2022/04/28/1095225258/disney-world-florida-debt https://www.npr.org/2022/04/28/1095225258/disney-world-flori...

rascul 4y ago
There have been related events since. In November, the CEO who had provided the criticism to the Don't Say Gay bill was fired. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/21/disney-board-reached-out-to-iger-friday-after-concerns-over-earnings.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/21/disney-board-reached-out-to-... Last month, Florida took over the Reedy Creek board, changed the name, and removed some of their powers. https://www.flgov.com/2023/02/27/governor-ron-desantis-signs-legislation-ending-the-corporate-kingdom-of-walt-disney-world/ https://www.flgov.com/2023/02/27/governor-ron-desantis-signs... There's probably other relevant stuff since April last year that I'm not aware of also. I'm not authoritative.