4 ms·

> The primary argument against crypto is that it shows why an open, stable, well structured professional governing state is crucial to the preservation of prope

> The primary argument against crypto is that it shows why an open, stable, well structured professional governing state is crucial to the preservation of property rights. It painfully highlights all the problems that happen when you create these assets in a way that's ideologically against statecraft. I mean, that was my point. It wasn't meant to be a 'truism', it was meant to illustrate that your investment making money isn't nearly as valuable if that value is lost because of problems that don't exist with other investments. If I put money into a fund and the owner dies I can still get my money through the courts. If a crypto wallet owner dies and has the keys in his head, it is gone forever. Same thing with options for investing. If I have to use a crypto exchange to do my trading, then the chances of losing my assets increases exponentially.

bawolff 4y ago
> it was meant to illustrate that your investment making money isn't nearly as valuable if that value is lost because of problems that don't exist with other investments. Risk vs return is a fundamental proposition of all investments. Bitcoin certainly has higher risk, but the fundamental idea that risky investments need more return to justify them applies everywhere not just bitcoin.
- Eisenstein 4y ago
  Yes, but that aspect is completely lost when people make the argument that if you bought bitcoin then on a long time scale you wouldn't have lost money. What are the chances that you would have lost the bitcoin through other means (not price)? This never gets mentioned.
  - bawolff 4y ago
    I mean, if you are holding bitcoin for the long term, i dont see why you would keep it at an exchange/other risky ventures. Bitcoin on a thumb drive kept in a safe deposit box does not go missing.
    - Eisenstein 4y ago
      Thumb drives don't hold data forever. Safe deposit boxes are not insured for more than a trivial amount and the contents get lost/removed all the time. Anyway you admitted that it is a riskier investment to hang on to then handwaved it when I said that no one is taking it into account.
      - bawolff 4y ago
        > Thumb drives don't hold data forever. Safe deposit boxes are not insured for more than a trivial amount and the contents get lost/removed all the time. This is downright silly. Might as well say if an asteroid hit the earth your money probably isn't safe. > Anyway you admitted that it is a riskier investment to hang on Than what? I admited that all investments have risk, and that like all investments some investments are safer than bitcoin and some are more dangerous. I would say the same thing about literally any investment. Even a savings account has some (miniscule) risk > handwaved it when I said that no one is taking it into account. You haven't presented any evidence that nobody is taking it into account. Obviously some people are and some aren't, but i'm not sure that distinguishes it from most other investments. You could argue that there is a higher porportion of people not taking it appropriately into account with bitcoin relative to say an index etf, which probably is true, but that is a hell of a goal post move from ">90% probability for crypto over a ten year period" to go to zero due to risk of investment being stolen.
        Eisenstein 4y ago
        > This is downright silly. Might as well say if an asteroid hit the earth your money probably isn't safe. Um, no? Flash memory cells hold a voltage. That voltage is not going to stay in there forever. It eventually leaks out and your data is corrupted. This isn't usually a problem because the cells refresh when powered on, and most people don't use flash drives for a decade -- but put it in a deposit box for more than a few years and you better cross your fingers when you plug it back in. "During normal operation, the flash drive firmware routinely refreshes the cells to restore lost charge. However, when the flash is not powered the state of charge will naturally degrade with time."[0] > Than what? Than nothing. My point was that people say 'if you bought bitcoin you couldn't have lost money because on aggregate it has gone up'. This is incredibly misleading because many people bought bitcoin and lost it in an exchange collapse, or families had their investments disappear because the person managing it died or the wallet got phished with no recourse, or they forgot the passphrase, etc. This is a risk that is not mentioned when people proclaim the great investment that is bitcoin. > You haven't presented any evidence that nobody is taking it into account. Um... the person I responded to? [0] https://www.ni.com/en-us/support/documentation/supplemental/12/understanding-life-expectancy-of-flash-storage.html https://www.ni.com/en-us/support/documentation/supplemental/...

bawolff 4y ago

> it was meant to illustrate that your investment making money isn't nearly as valuable if that value is lost because of problems that don't exist with other investments. Risk vs return is a fundamental proposition of all investments. Bitcoin certainly has higher risk, but the fundamental idea that risky investments need more return to justify them applies everywhere not just bitcoin.

Eisenstein 4y ago
Yes, but that aspect is completely lost when people make the argument that if you bought bitcoin then on a long time scale you wouldn't have lost money. What are the chances that you would have lost the bitcoin through other means (not price)? This never gets mentioned.
- bawolff 4y ago
  I mean, if you are holding bitcoin for the long term, i dont see why you would keep it at an exchange/other risky ventures. Bitcoin on a thumb drive kept in a safe deposit box does not go missing.
  - Eisenstein 4y ago
    Thumb drives don't hold data forever. Safe deposit boxes are not insured for more than a trivial amount and the contents get lost/removed all the time. Anyway you admitted that it is a riskier investment to hang on to then handwaved it when I said that no one is taking it into account.
    - bawolff 4y ago
      > Thumb drives don't hold data forever. Safe deposit boxes are not insured for more than a trivial amount and the contents get lost/removed all the time. This is downright silly. Might as well say if an asteroid hit the earth your money probably isn't safe. > Anyway you admitted that it is a riskier investment to hang on Than what? I admited that all investments have risk, and that like all investments some investments are safer than bitcoin and some are more dangerous. I would say the same thing about literally any investment. Even a savings account has some (miniscule) risk > handwaved it when I said that no one is taking it into account. You haven't presented any evidence that nobody is taking it into account. Obviously some people are and some aren't, but i'm not sure that distinguishes it from most other investments. You could argue that there is a higher porportion of people not taking it appropriately into account with bitcoin relative to say an index etf, which probably is true, but that is a hell of a goal post move from ">90% probability for crypto over a ten year period" to go to zero due to risk of investment being stolen.
      - Eisenstein 4y ago
        > This is downright silly. Might as well say if an asteroid hit the earth your money probably isn't safe. Um, no? Flash memory cells hold a voltage. That voltage is not going to stay in there forever. It eventually leaks out and your data is corrupted. This isn't usually a problem because the cells refresh when powered on, and most people don't use flash drives for a decade -- but put it in a deposit box for more than a few years and you better cross your fingers when you plug it back in. "During normal operation, the flash drive firmware routinely refreshes the cells to restore lost charge. However, when the flash is not powered the state of charge will naturally degrade with time."[0] > Than what? Than nothing. My point was that people say 'if you bought bitcoin you couldn't have lost money because on aggregate it has gone up'. This is incredibly misleading because many people bought bitcoin and lost it in an exchange collapse, or families had their investments disappear because the person managing it died or the wallet got phished with no recourse, or they forgot the passphrase, etc. This is a risk that is not mentioned when people proclaim the great investment that is bitcoin. > You haven't presented any evidence that nobody is taking it into account. Um... the person I responded to? [0] https://www.ni.com/en-us/support/documentation/supplemental/12/understanding-life-expectancy-of-flash-storage.html https://www.ni.com/en-us/support/documentation/supplemental/...