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"The American Cancer Society advises that Latinx, along with the equally gender-neutral Latine, Latin@, and Latinu, “may or may not be fully embraced by older g

• freitzkriesler2 4y ago
  As a Hispanic American, I very regularly tell people I am Latino and that Latinx is incredibly offensive to my heritage. I'm in my 30s and the younger people I know also find it offensive.
  • QuercusMax 4y ago
    [flagged]
    • oaththrowaway 4y ago
      White people colonizing another language to virtue signal isn't inflammatory to you?
      • QuercusMax 4y ago
        As others have said in this thread, it wasn't created by white people. That's why I'm saying this is inflammatory.
        • oaththrowaway 4y ago
          Regardless of who created it, I've never seen a non-white person use it. My wife is Hispanic, and it has been offensive to her and her family.
          • QuercusMax 4y ago
            But why is it so offensive? All I see is knee-jerk reactions giving supposed racist motives to the term, when it's been established that this term originated with native Spanish speakers! I personally think that choosing 'x' was a poor choice, and it's basically unpronounceable by everyone in both Spanish and English. But making up supposed racist origins is a bit much.
            • blahblah1234567 4y ago
              [flagged]
            • marcus0x62 4y ago
              > All I see is knee-jerk reactions giving supposed racist motives to the term, when it's been established that this term originated with native Spanish speakers! Do you have a credible source for this claim? All I’ve ever seen are vague assertions it originated “organically” in the early 2000s.
        • freitzkriesler2 4y ago
          BS its origins are unknown. You have no idea who made it.
    • wonderwonder 4y ago
      How would you feel if people of another race, especially one that has historically oppressed yours decided they knew better than you and decided to change the rules as to how you were referred and if you objected told you it was for your protection?
      • dragonwriter 4y ago
        Latine and LatinX don't come from “people of a different race” than those it applies to (even without considering the artificial race/ethnicity distinction.)
        • wonderwonder 4y ago
          Does it really matter? If the majority of latin people don't like it, then why force it on them?
          • dragonwriter 4y ago
            > Does it really matter? Insofar as people are repeating the false origin as if it matters, apparently.
            • wonderwonder 4y ago
              There is no proof to the origin of the term. Your claim that it was invented by Latin Americans is as solid as mine that it was a white construct. Either way I have never seen it used by anyone besides DEI types and academic white people
    • freitzkriesler2 4y ago
      Far from it, the term disregards the history and linguistic heritage of my mother tongue for the sensibilities of white people, who for whatever reason have problems accepting feminine and masculine word pronunciations. Just because white people like rewriting their history and language doesn't mean they have a right to rewrite mine. If you find that inflammatory or offensive, now you know how I feel.
      • dragonwriter 4y ago
        > Far from it, the term disregards the history and linguistic heritage of my mother tongue for the sensibilities of white people It was created by native apeakers of your mother tongue, as a conscious rejection of the way they saw it—their mother tongue—as erasing, or at least obstructing communication of, their gender identity.
        • Tade0 4y ago
          Who said these people represented the general Spanish-speaking population?
          • dragonwriter 4y ago
            > Who said these people represented the general Spanish-speaking population? That's a very good question. Since you appear to be arguing against that strawman, tell us, who said that? EDIT: My point is, if we can acknowledge that, like Hispanic and Latino and Latino/Latina (each of which are strongly objected to by some in the community, preferred by others, and tolerated but neither preferred nor objected to by others when talking about the broader group inclusively) these are preferred identity labels of part of the community which is being addressed, we can then talk about how to address a community with internal divisions over preferred identity label, when one specifically wants to address the whole group and not just those who favor a particular label. But we can’t even get to that point as long as we pretend that this is just an external imposition unconnected to preferences expressed within the population described.
    • bl_valance 4y ago
      Our language doesn't need fixing, that's just the way it is. This whole latinx is literal cultural imperialism. It's not about not understanding the meaning of using these terms, it's the fact that it suggests that our entire language should be changed to be more "inclusive".
      • QuercusMax 4y ago
        [flagged]
        • wonderwonder 4y ago
          Is it being updated in Latin America or is it being force updated in the United States?
        • bl_valance 4y ago
          You clearly don't understand how the language works. Let me give you an example. "The latinx" "La/El latinx", where La(F) -> '-a' and El(M) for '-o', how do you replace that? Everything is gendered and this is not restricted to just Spanish. Americans can continue to use latinx, fine, but don't impose that onto natives because that just doesn't make sense in their native language. And saying, "we need to educate the older generation" is arrogant and disrespectful, we understand it quite well.
          • phlakaton 4y ago
            Seems to me the retort there is, "Assuming this is a problem with old people is ageist."
        • bradleyjg 4y ago
          There’s nothing more prescriptivist than a term propagated entirely by HR fiat.
  • convolvatron 4y ago
    maybe instead of arguing about what non-gendered term we should call this group of people we should instead admit that 'latino' is a projection onto a wide variety of people that have different cultural backgrounds but roughly share a language and sometimes a skin tone.
    • ilyt 4y ago
      Or maybe we should tell people who started latinx garbage and started the arguing to fuck off and > we should instead admit that 'latino' is a projection onto a wide variety of people that have different cultural backgrounds but roughly share a language and sometimes a skin tone. instead of inventing more names to divide people by, just... not ?
      • convolvatron 4y ago
        I guess I should go back to referring to all people from SE Asia as Chinese since my American friends are just too lazy and dismissive to bother with people's actual nationality and prefer broad and vague terms for the other.
        • ilyt 4y ago
          You could just call them asians as is widely accepted since forever. There is nothing wrong with using more generic term if you don't know exact nationality of the person.
  • autodev1 4y ago
    I go by XatinXox, personally. And I expect people to call me that before I even inform them of what I am called. They should just know.
    • mock-possum 4y ago
      I think you're joking, but 'Xicanx' is a real neologism in the same realm as Latinx.
  • mcguire 4y ago
    Out of curiosity, more or less offensive than referring to you as Latina?
    • freitzkriesler2 4y ago
      If it's blissful ignorance where someone doesn't know the how gendered pronouns work, that's not a problem. If it's someone who is intentionally adding an X to the end because of some perceived gender nonsense, then that's offensive.
• autodev1 4y ago
  [flagged]
  • User23 4y ago
    I personally think we need to introduce Latin-American-American to the lexicon.
    • autodev1 4y ago
      I just had a realization: "Latin" already includes "la" at the beginning of the word-- which is the feminine infinitive. Therefore, LatinA and LatinX are redundant. Or, perhaps we as arbitors of global culture, should enforce our new inventin: ElTin and LaTin ...and maybe a LeTin. or LxTin Actually let's go with all of the above. And any other creations as well. because who cares-- throw in the kitchen sink! /more silliness
      • ilyt 4y ago
        Xatinx should cover everything then
  • germandiago 4y ago
    Hahahahaha! Best post I read today.
    • autodev1 4y ago
      excuse me, but it's not a post. It's a publicacixxn. Please respect its lived lexiconical truth
• luckylion 4y ago
  In that first paragraph, you can also read it as a society for the study of the American Cancer, and it also makes sense. Unfortunately, it metastasized and any connected tissue gets infected as well. I guess most immigrants don't need to learn the shibboleths, unless they suddenly get into money and want to join the upper class. It's about discriminating between the commoners and the rulers, that's why it constantly evolves, too. Need to regularly release new ciphers if you're communicating in the open with a trivial cryptography.
• bradleyjg 4y ago
  It’s about class. Not in the usual American sense of how much money you make, but in the older sense of people thinking they are better sorts of people because they have the correct diction, education, religious views, professions, and so on.
  • walleeee 4y ago
    Indeed, and someone with money and a desire to prevent actual class conflict can get a lot of mileage out of encouraging tensions in the narrow, purely expressive sense you describe
    • bradleyjg 4y ago
      That’s the Marxist analysis and there might be something to it, but I think the main driver is just human nature. People like to feel superior. In one era that was “I’m a devout Christian from a good family unlike those other whores and sodomites,” in another it was “I’m a hard working industrialist unlike those lazy, old money playboys,” and now it’s “I’m a social worker dealing with the problems of BIPOC folx, unlike those finance bros that only care about money.”
      • walleeee 4y ago
        Right, this is not a new phenomenon. Whether it's meaningful to pin it on human nature, I'm not sure; we consider ourselves unique as a species largely for our ability to recursively adapt the environment to ourselves, and then ourselves to the new state of affairs, and so on. We do generally prefer to think we're smart and good and well-informed and justified in our decisions, no doubt. We also usually prefer to keep what we have, which could be taken to support the traditional Marxist line. All I'm saying is in an attention economy, one does well to reflect and ask who benefits from one's beliefs and their mode of expression. Substitute money for power, reputation, or any scarce social resource, and I think the analysis still tends to work, whether or not it echoes Marx.
  • germandiago 4y ago
    It is a universal truth that all of us feel worse or better than. No matter how mich politically-correct stuff you put on top. And there is nothing wrong with it. Respect is the only thing needed.
• JohnFen 4y ago
  A good friend of mine is a Spanish translator for a social services agency. She was telling me that the "latinx" thing is a real problem, because for people -- particularly older people -- who are not strong on their reading in the first place, they hit "LatinX" and genuinely have zero idea what that's supposed to mean. So then time, energy, and goodwill gets wasted by having to explain to people what they "should" be calling themselves. The people she's talking to thinks the whole thing is just stupid, and is a thing that only white people care about. But she also mentions that the younger generation of LatinX people do care, and often prefer the term. It's all a big mess and makes compassionate communication more difficult.
  • soiler 4y ago
    There's an extra layer of post-colonialism in this situation, but it's otherwise almost identical to the discussion happening in English about gendered pronouns. I think the following can both be true: 1. It's bad to tell people that they're using their native language badly if you're not a native speaker (especially in a scenario where there's a social power dynamic at play, like Spanish speakers trying to navigate discrimination in the US). People making things harder for immigrants without compassion for their challenges are probably making a mistake. 2. It's bad to say "this whole thing is just stupid" about a radical shift in language that's being deliberately embraced by younger people to break down discriminatory gender traditions, just because it's new and you're mildly confused about it. People making things harder for gender-nonconforming people are probably making a mistake.
    • onecommentman 4y ago
      Replace “younger people” with “a few younger people from a particular socioeconomic class” to be more accurate. The eternal outraged youth will always find a few hobby horses to ride. Sometimes they lead to good things. This is a particularly smelly one, unfortunately. It’s not bad to say “this whole thing is just stupid”. It’s just incomplete to say…it’s also musically ugly (language is a song of sorts) and culturally insulting. The intent is understandable, the linguistic implementation ridiculous. How about actual younger people developing another, more beautiful, culturally acceptable, word to achieve the same objective? Why continue to ride this malodorous hobby horse their elders forced between their legs? (I think that image is acceptably gender-nonconforming, and oddly appropriate.) Anyway, according to la Asociación de Academias de la Lengua Española https://www.asale.org/la-asociacion https://www.asale.org/la-asociacion the body responsible for the preservation of the Spanish language across the Spanish-speaking world, it isn’t a Spanish word (not acknowledged in the official dictionary) https://dle.rae.es/Latinx https://dle.rae.es/Latinx Santiago! BTW your phrase “mildly confused” is demeaning and insulting to readers who would genuinely struggle with incorporating this in their normal Spanish speech after decades of surviving without it. Bit ironic for someone concerned with “sensitivity” to write.
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• dragonwriter 4y ago
  > Imagine being an immigrant and having to learn both English and then a made up filter created by well paid academics on top of it. Latine and LatinX both originate in (different geographical parts of) the spanish-first-language non-binary community, originally for use in Spanish, neither (AFAIK) by “well-paid academics”. Latinu and Latin@ I’m less sure about, but wouldn’t be surprised if they are the same. While there’s legitimate debates about their use, the “created by white English-speaking academics and imposed on the people labelled by them” narrative is itself White-centering myth. (OTOH, the anglicized, instead of mixed, pronunciation of LatinX is probably a White anglophone invention, the original is like latino/a with the final vowel removed, and with the english name of the letter “X” in its place.)
  • lolinder 4y ago
    > Latine and LatinX both originate in (different geographical parts of) the spanish-first-language non-binary community, originally for use in Spanish, neither (AFAIK) by “well-paid academics”. This is disputed, both sides have evidence for them and no one really knows. I'm fluent in Spanish and have a hard time seeing a native Spanish speaker inventing LatinX. There's no good Spanish way to pronounce it, and inserting the English pronunciation of the letter 'x' is an odd choice for someone who's paying attention to identity politics—you would think they'd try to find an alternative that feels less anglo.
    • dragonwriter 4y ago
      > I'm fluent in Spanish and have a hard time seeing a native Spanish speaker inventing LatinX. There's no good Spanish way to pronounce There's no good English wsy to pronounce it either. Its a deliberate linguistic transgression. (Aesthetically, its why I personally like Latine better for the specific purpose of explicit inclusion of non-binary identities, but, being neither Latin nor non-binary, I don't weight my aesthetic preferences heavily on the issue.) EDIT: Really, the problem of how to identify a group in a way inclusive of a subgroup to whose existence the broader group is at best, as s whole, ambivalent is the real issue, and the origin stories, and more to the point the attempt to impute malign motives based on particular origin stories, is a way to avoid reaching the issue.
• germandiago 4y ago
  I am spanish. I fully agree this is all deeply stupid political-industry stuff that just generates artificial conflicts. Like many other things in politics.
  • soiler 4y ago
    [flagged]
    • stillkicking 4y ago
      Spanish-speaking non-binary people are hopefully not so stupid as to conflate a lack of appetite to rewrite the entirety of Spanish grammar with a refusal to acknowledge someone's existence.
      • soiler 4y ago
        You will actually find that the vast majority of Spanish grammar is untouched by this change. The only change, actually, is that it will now be possible to acknowledge the existence of nonbinary people. Or do you think that binary gendered pronouns already do that job?
        • wonderwonder 4y ago
          Except progressives are pushing LatinX as the default term that all Latinos fall under.
    • 13years 4y ago
      Thinking your existence is determined by the grammatical structure of language is a self defined prison of ones own making.
      • soiler 4y ago
        Ok cool, they get to exist. And they speak Spanish. What word do they use to refer to themselves? Oh, no, how did we get back here...?
• leonidasv 4y ago
  And there was no need for bringing up this unreadable "Latinx" word in the first place. There's already a centuries-old gender-neutral word for Latino/Latina that is, surprise, "Latin". Or "Latin person" if you will. I was born in South America, and I really reject being called a "Latinx". It sounds dehumanizing.
  • TurkishPoptart 4y ago
    I think the only sensible way to resist this is to poke fun at it. Humor did a great job at whittling away the absurdities of the Soviet Union, and it can do the same with this dystopian diversity nonsense.
• hirvi74 4y ago
  > Just don't be racist I am so sorry if this pedantic, but I think it's an important distinction to make. Both Hispanic and Latino are not races but rather an ethnic group. The race of people who belong to the Hispanic and Latino ethnic groups varies by country and even at the individual. One can have predominately African ancestry, predominately European ancestry, or predominately indigenous ancestry, while all belong to the same ethnic group of Hispanic or Latino. I do not bring up this point to try and detract from the legitimate discrimination and oppression that many individuals and groups in the Hispanic and Latino community face. People of Jewish heritage belong to what is known as an ethno-religious group. The idea that "Jews are a race" was either first proposed, or at least heavily perpetuated by the Nazis, and it is still considered offensive to refer to people of Jewish heritage as belonging to a different race. Regardless, the idea of race is a social construct with absolutely zero biological or scientific basis behind it. There is only one "race", and it's the "Human Race." In an ideal world, we would not even need to make these distinctions because we are all Homo Sapiens -- we have no subspecies. Maybe one day we can achieve this world if we stop the pathetic, needless, and disgusting hatred for our fellow man.
  • wonderwonder 4y ago
    I'm a white Jew from Africa:) So race wise I'm either Jewish, White, African or maybe African American now that I live in America. Joking aside, I agree with your point
    • hirvi74 4y ago
      > So race wise I'm either Jewish What did I just say? ;) Which part of Africa? As I understand it, Middle Eastern (including Egypt). people are considered "white" by the US Census (for those unaware). If natively from Morocco/Egypt/Perhaps more, would you not be considered Mizrahi or are you talking like European ancestory? Not like any of this matters in the absolute slightest at the end of the day. I, myself, have 0% < x < 25% Sephardi with another 0% < x < 25% Ashkenazi heritage. My other half is pure Wonderbread levels of European whiteness. Apparently, I'm a mutt because my ancestors liked to travel and liked to bang whatever population was there when they arrived (I am kidding, this goes for most people).
• jredwards 4y ago
  Spanish people are not Latino (or Latina, or Latinx). Latino means from Latin-America (or descended from people who are). Hispanic means from a Spanish-speaking country. Spanish people are Hispanic, but not Latino.
• mock-possum 4y ago
  I can't tell if you're intentionally misconstruing here, but assuming you're not - you would not be in a position of explaining to Spanish people why they are wrong and are really one thing or another (Also I assume you mean hispanic people, or Spanish-speaking people?) You'd be explaining the reasoning behind the modern use of the term, and allowing them to decide for themselves how to engage with it. The idea isn't to design a new armband that you require people of a particular group to wear each week - the idea is to ask those people what they want, and then respect them when they answer you. If someone says they identify as Latinx, then you identify them as Latinx. It doesn't have to be any more complicated than that. It's not about the enforcement of identity, *it's about the deconstruction of traditionally enforced identities in the first place*, it's about exploring the creation of new identities outside of the bounds of conservative tradition.
  • wonderwonder 4y ago
    “may or may not be fully embraced by older generations and may need additional explanation.” I directly quoted the article that specifically said additional explanation had to be made. "If someone says they identify as Latinx, then you identify them as Latinx" except that's not what the article says. It discussed how LatinX is often used as the default in progressive language.