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Yeah, important to mention that. Still, I don't want my phone to even be capable of doing that, nor do I see the reason behind it when iCloud could just do the

Yeah, important to mention that. Still, I don't want my phone to even be capable of doing that, nor do I see the reason behind it when iCloud could just do the scanning itself. That's one big step closer to the described full-private scanning (and just a flag flip away).

bombcar 4y ago
The supposed argument was that they wanted to keep the scanning they do in iCloud now (I believe they do it) and yet make iCloud encrypted so that they can't see the images once they leave your device. So they move the scanning to the device.
- hot_gril 4y ago
  Did Apple actually say they wanted to do e2ee iCloud photos when they announced CSAM scanning, or were people only speculating this? I don't remember / can't find an announcement on that. Also curious if there's some law preventing them from doing e2ee without the scanning.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    I believe it was speculation based on them saying they wanted e2ee (and now it's available IIRC). It honestly seems to me like they thought they could negotiate a middle ground without pissing off the Feds or the customers, but they maneuvered it quite badly.
    - hot_gril 4y ago
      > now it's available IIRC Oh cool, didn't know that. It's this new "advanced data protection" feature that makes everything in iCloud e2ee except the classic mail/contacts/calendars combo that wouldn't really work with that. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 is a nice resource on this, and I wish more companies would publish things like this.
      - bombcar 4y ago
        It's a technologically impressive feat, and honestly they've done it well. I'm a bit too chickenshit to try it, as losing my devices is all too likely, but I'm glad it's available for those who need it.
jodrellblank 4y ago
> "Still, I don't want my phone to even be capable of doing that," Not capable of what, running software? Communicating with a HTTPS endpoint? Having library code? Running stuff in the manufacturer's interest rather than your interest? All those things happen already in some form or other, and there isn't a cutoff to make the phone incapable of it without hobbling the phone. > "That's one big step closer to the described full-private scanning (and just a flag flip away)." iPhone already does scan offline private photos for face and object recognition purposes. And run big blobs of unknown Apple-provided code. It's only your trust in Apple that makes you think it doesn't report anything back now - and nothing at all stopping them from being arm twisted by the authorities to make that scan for something the government dislikes and report on it, as you say a flag flip away. It already does send your location and your surrounding WiFi signals and your voice when you use Siri unless you toggle the privacy settings, and that all came in quietly on regular updates. Apple walked a fairly narrow line when they announced it, and when they publicly stated that if the authorities asked them to extend the scope of the scanning that they would refuse. I don't know why they chose to do it on the endpoints rather than in the cloud, but acting like doing it on the cloud would give you any level of protection from them putting intrusive software on your phone is not reality. (Same with Google, Samsung, et al).
- hot_gril 4y ago
  > Not capable of what, running software? Not loaded with trained models on illegal content and wired up to alert the authorities if it finds a match, with presumably several teams within Apple built around that feature. I'm thinking about more than the technical aspects of this. > It's only your trust in Apple that makes you think it doesn't report anything back now Yeah, exactly. I trust them enough right now to run tons of stuff without my knowledge on my phone. I don't have the time or knowledge to audit my phone, even if it were Android. If they announced that new feature is going live like it's a thing customers are meant to be ok with, I'd trust them a lot less.

bombcar 4y ago

The supposed argument was that they wanted to keep the scanning they do in iCloud now (I believe they do it) and yet make iCloud encrypted so that they can't see the images once they leave your device. So they move the scanning to the device.

hot_gril 4y ago
Did Apple actually say they wanted to do e2ee iCloud photos when they announced CSAM scanning, or were people only speculating this? I don't remember / can't find an announcement on that. Also curious if there's some law preventing them from doing e2ee without the scanning.
- bombcar 4y ago
  I believe it was speculation based on them saying they wanted e2ee (and now it's available IIRC). It honestly seems to me like they thought they could negotiate a middle ground without pissing off the Feds or the customers, but they maneuvered it quite badly.
  - hot_gril 4y ago
    > now it's available IIRC Oh cool, didn't know that. It's this new "advanced data protection" feature that makes everything in iCloud e2ee except the classic mail/contacts/calendars combo that wouldn't really work with that. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 is a nice resource on this, and I wish more companies would publish things like this.
    - bombcar 4y ago
      It's a technologically impressive feat, and honestly they've done it well. I'm a bit too chickenshit to try it, as losing my devices is all too likely, but I'm glad it's available for those who need it.

jodrellblank 4y ago

> "Still, I don't want my phone to even be capable of doing that," Not capable of what, running software? Communicating with a HTTPS endpoint? Having library code? Running stuff in the manufacturer's interest rather than your interest? All those things happen already in some form or other, and there isn't a cutoff to make the phone incapable of it without hobbling the phone. > "That's one big step closer to the described full-private scanning (and just a flag flip away)." iPhone already does scan offline private photos for face and object recognition purposes. And run big blobs of unknown Apple-provided code. It's only your trust in Apple that makes you think it doesn't report anything back now - and nothing at all stopping them from being arm twisted by the authorities to make that scan for something the government dislikes and report on it, as you say a flag flip away. It already does send your location and your surrounding WiFi signals and your voice when you use Siri unless you toggle the privacy settings, and that all came in quietly on regular updates. Apple walked a fairly narrow line when they announced it, and when they publicly stated that if the authorities asked them to extend the scope of the scanning that they would refuse. I don't know why they chose to do it on the endpoints rather than in the cloud, but acting like doing it on the cloud would give you any level of protection from them putting intrusive software on your phone is not reality. (Same with Google, Samsung, et al).

hot_gril 4y ago
> Not capable of what, running software? Not loaded with trained models on illegal content and wired up to alert the authorities if it finds a match, with presumably several teams within Apple built around that feature. I'm thinking about more than the technical aspects of this. > It's only your trust in Apple that makes you think it doesn't report anything back now Yeah, exactly. I trust them enough right now to run tons of stuff without my knowledge on my phone. I don't have the time or knowledge to audit my phone, even if it were Android. If they announced that new feature is going live like it's a thing customers are meant to be ok with, I'd trust them a lot less.