6 ms·

I'd be even more restrictive than that: everyone should get a proper minimum wage, regardless of the line of work they're in, regardless of whether they're perf

I'd be even more restrictive than that: everyone should get a proper minimum wage, regardless of the line of work they're in, regardless of whether they're performing a direct personal service for you. Tipping should be for exceptional service. Nobody should need tips to make ends meet.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> everyone should get a proper minimum wage, regardless of the line of work they're in, regardless of whether they're performing a direct personal service for you In America, this is the law. It’s poorly enforced, unfortunately.
- hiddencost 4y ago
  Naw. Minimum wage is not a living wage for the vast majority of the population. Hasn't even pretended to pace inflation.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > Minimum wage is not a living wage for the vast majority of the population Minimum should be just that: minimum. For higher COL cities, the minimum (and tipped minimum, with an obligation to make the minimum if tips prove insufficient) should be higher. Raising the minimum nationwide to New York City’s COL basically depopulates lower COL places; this is a source of generally misrepresented rural backlash against these broad-based schemes. Imagine if Germany and Greece had the same minimum wage; the latter would get screwed. (Not arguing that the federal minimum shouldn’t be raised. Just that it should be too low for most of the country, because if it isn’t, it’s too high for some, and that’s a policy failure for a minimum. I haven’t seen a scheme for a dynamic federal minimum; that would make sense.)
  - hirvi74 4y ago
    [flagged]
- dfxm12 4y ago
  I'm not sure why this is (currently) getting downvoted. This is legally correct, at the federal level [0] and at every state level that I'm aware of. Also, wage theft is a huge issue in the US (and part of the problem is tipped employees not receiving the difference between what they actually made and the minimum wage) and is poorly enforced - https://wageadvocates.com/wage-theft-huge-problem-infographic/ https://wageadvocates.com/wage-theft-huge-problem-infographi... 0 - https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/faq/esa/flsa/002.htm https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/faq/esa/flsa/002.htm Here's a law in PA: https://www.dli.pa.gov/Individuals/Labor-Management-Relations/llc/Pages/Overtime-Rules.aspx#:~:text=Definition%20of%20Tipped%20Employee&text=If%20a%20tip%2Dcredited%20employee,at%20least%20%247.25%20per%20hour https://www.dli.pa.gov/Individuals/Labor-Management-Relation....
- talideon 4y ago
  The US has two minimum wages (there's also a "youth" one, but that's a separate issue): the minimum wage for non-tipped employees, and a much lower one for tipped employees, which essentially boils down to whether you're service staff or not. Now, while individual state may have their own laws around minimum wages above the federal minimum, I find the idea that there two in the first place abhorrent. The current rates are US$7.25 and US$2.13. Neither are remotely livable, but the one for tipped staff is essentially peonage. So no, this isn't a matter for enforcement. The law is set up to encourage this behaviour.
  - tzs 4y ago
    The law is that if someone on the tipped minimum wage doesn't make enough in tips to reach the non-tipped minimum wage the employer has to make up the difference. In effect if the law is actually enforced the minimum wage is $7.25 for both tipped and non-tipped workers, but if you are tipped the first $5.12 of tips goes to the employer. My understanding is that enforcement of this is not the best.
tick_tock_tick 4y ago
I mean that's the law in California but tipping is even worse here then most of the country.
- red-iron-pine 4y ago
  That's cuz the minimum wage ain't enough to live mon ami. Just enough to not die.
munch117 4y ago
What's so special about direct personal service? Why does the person cleaning the rest rooms or the person cooking you food deserve less than the person who's transporting plates?
- tristor 4y ago
  Mostly, it's a nuance that has legal and tax implications, but the original reason is that a tip is an optional (not required) direct gift from the person receiving service to the person doing service. It's a thank-you gift. This is heavily diluted when you expect tips for anything else, and it makes it very obvious it's just a hidden fee that may or may not even be going to the workers. Wage theft is the largest type of theft in the US, and a non-insignificant amount comes from tip pooling schemes where owners and managers take a dip. I tip my barber because they took extra time and attention to ensure I had the perfect hair cut and beard shaping to look good in my workplace or on a date, or whatever. I am not generically tipping for having done a business transaction, the person who took my appointment over the phone is not the person who cut my hair. I am giving a thank you gift to the barber because they took time and attention for /me/ /personally/. FWIW, I appreciated restaurants that had a menu option to buy a round of beers for the kitchen. I would do that every time it was presented to me, above and beyond a tip. To me, when I tip someone who rendered me a personal service (especially a service where I have a conversation with them), it's me saying "I'd buy you a beer and say thank you, but I can't do that right now and you have other customers, so here's some cash as a thank you.". Diluting that meaning eliminates the reason I'm willing to tip in the first place.
  - _puk 4y ago
    The barber one always gets me. That's a direct 1-1 transaction. You are getting a hair cut, so if it's good, you'll come back. If it's bad you won't. Charge what it costs and give the best service possible. Granted if they go above and beyond maybe I would tip (buy yourself a beer as you say, but it would have to be more than "they cut my hair"). That's the slippery slope though, whereby if you don't tip you are deemed to not be happy with the service, and so the emotional imperative is to tip to not offend.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

> everyone should get a proper minimum wage, regardless of the line of work they're in, regardless of whether they're performing a direct personal service for you In America, this is the law. It’s poorly enforced, unfortunately.

hiddencost 4y ago
Naw. Minimum wage is not a living wage for the vast majority of the population. Hasn't even pretended to pace inflation.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > Minimum wage is not a living wage for the vast majority of the population Minimum should be just that: minimum. For higher COL cities, the minimum (and tipped minimum, with an obligation to make the minimum if tips prove insufficient) should be higher. Raising the minimum nationwide to New York City’s COL basically depopulates lower COL places; this is a source of generally misrepresented rural backlash against these broad-based schemes. Imagine if Germany and Greece had the same minimum wage; the latter would get screwed. (Not arguing that the federal minimum shouldn’t be raised. Just that it should be too low for most of the country, because if it isn’t, it’s too high for some, and that’s a policy failure for a minimum. I haven’t seen a scheme for a dynamic federal minimum; that would make sense.)
- hirvi74 4y ago
  [flagged]
dfxm12 4y ago
I'm not sure why this is (currently) getting downvoted. This is legally correct, at the federal level [0] and at every state level that I'm aware of. Also, wage theft is a huge issue in the US (and part of the problem is tipped employees not receiving the difference between what they actually made and the minimum wage) and is poorly enforced - https://wageadvocates.com/wage-theft-huge-problem-infographic/ https://wageadvocates.com/wage-theft-huge-problem-infographi... 0 - https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/faq/esa/flsa/002.htm https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/faq/esa/flsa/002.htm Here's a law in PA: https://www.dli.pa.gov/Individuals/Labor-Management-Relations/llc/Pages/Overtime-Rules.aspx#:~:text=Definition%20of%20Tipped%20Employee&text=If%20a%20tip%2Dcredited%20employee,at%20least%20%247.25%20per%20hour https://www.dli.pa.gov/Individuals/Labor-Management-Relation....
talideon 4y ago
The US has two minimum wages (there's also a "youth" one, but that's a separate issue): the minimum wage for non-tipped employees, and a much lower one for tipped employees, which essentially boils down to whether you're service staff or not. Now, while individual state may have their own laws around minimum wages above the federal minimum, I find the idea that there two in the first place abhorrent. The current rates are US$7.25 and US$2.13. Neither are remotely livable, but the one for tipped staff is essentially peonage. So no, this isn't a matter for enforcement. The law is set up to encourage this behaviour.
- tzs 4y ago
  The law is that if someone on the tipped minimum wage doesn't make enough in tips to reach the non-tipped minimum wage the employer has to make up the difference. In effect if the law is actually enforced the minimum wage is $7.25 for both tipped and non-tipped workers, but if you are tipped the first $5.12 of tips goes to the employer. My understanding is that enforcement of this is not the best.

tick_tock_tick 4y ago

I mean that's the law in California but tipping is even worse here then most of the country.

red-iron-pine 4y ago
That's cuz the minimum wage ain't enough to live mon ami. Just enough to not die.

munch117 4y ago

What's so special about direct personal service? Why does the person cleaning the rest rooms or the person cooking you food deserve less than the person who's transporting plates?

tristor 4y ago
Mostly, it's a nuance that has legal and tax implications, but the original reason is that a tip is an optional (not required) direct gift from the person receiving service to the person doing service. It's a thank-you gift. This is heavily diluted when you expect tips for anything else, and it makes it very obvious it's just a hidden fee that may or may not even be going to the workers. Wage theft is the largest type of theft in the US, and a non-insignificant amount comes from tip pooling schemes where owners and managers take a dip. I tip my barber because they took extra time and attention to ensure I had the perfect hair cut and beard shaping to look good in my workplace or on a date, or whatever. I am not generically tipping for having done a business transaction, the person who took my appointment over the phone is not the person who cut my hair. I am giving a thank you gift to the barber because they took time and attention for /me/ /personally/. FWIW, I appreciated restaurants that had a menu option to buy a round of beers for the kitchen. I would do that every time it was presented to me, above and beyond a tip. To me, when I tip someone who rendered me a personal service (especially a service where I have a conversation with them), it's me saying "I'd buy you a beer and say thank you, but I can't do that right now and you have other customers, so here's some cash as a thank you.". Diluting that meaning eliminates the reason I'm willing to tip in the first place.
- _puk 4y ago
  The barber one always gets me. That's a direct 1-1 transaction. You are getting a hair cut, so if it's good, you'll come back. If it's bad you won't. Charge what it costs and give the best service possible. Granted if they go above and beyond maybe I would tip (buy yourself a beer as you say, but it would have to be more than "they cut my hair"). That's the slippery slope though, whereby if you don't tip you are deemed to not be happy with the service, and so the emotional imperative is to tip to not offend.