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It's getting out of control in the US. Tips are supposed to be for service workers, not for anyone who you interact with in any way while conducting a basic bu

It's getting out of control in the US. Tips are supposed to be for service workers, not for anyone who you interact with in any way while conducting a basic business transaction. People who are performing a direct personal service for you. In the US now, businesses expect you to tip on take-out orders, at drive through windows, at every form of eatery, there's even tips expected now at some retailers. The roles that are appropriate to tip didn't change just because everyone felt like it was okay to ask for a tip. You tip barbers, doormen, bellhops, shoe shines, wait staff, delivery drivers, and bartenders. That's basically it. If a worker is not rendering you a direct personal service, they should not be tipped and their employer being passive-aggressive about it is hoping enough of their staff get tipped they can start paying the tipped minimum wage instead of paying a normal wage for their job role. What a lot of people don't get is that opposing the expansion of tipping isn't a negative for the workers, it's a negative for the business owners. The business owners /want/ society to expect to tip workers, because they can pay them $2.15/hr instead of $17/hr in a major metro as long as they clear federal minimum wage after tips. Stop the madness, and stop tipping people who are not in direct service roles. What's super fucked is that in SF I am seeing most businesses just add it on the check as a mandatory service charge and require you to argue with them. Like, why the fuck am I paying you a 15% service charge for me to walk to your restaurant and pick up my order off a shelf and walk back to where I'm staying after I ordered online. We both know that money isn't going to the kitchen staff, it's lining the business owner's pocket and is a fraudulent way for them to raise prices by forcing a fee on you that you have to argue about. If I'm ordering on the web and picking up, and not even speaking to anybody in the process, what "service" did I receive?

talideon 4y ago
I'd be even more restrictive than that: everyone should get a proper minimum wage, regardless of the line of work they're in, regardless of whether they're performing a direct personal service for you. Tipping should be for exceptional service. Nobody should need tips to make ends meet.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > everyone should get a proper minimum wage, regardless of the line of work they're in, regardless of whether they're performing a direct personal service for you In America, this is the law. It’s poorly enforced, unfortunately.
  - hiddencost 4y ago
    Naw. Minimum wage is not a living wage for the vast majority of the population. Hasn't even pretended to pace inflation.
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      > Minimum wage is not a living wage for the vast majority of the population Minimum should be just that: minimum. For higher COL cities, the minimum (and tipped minimum, with an obligation to make the minimum if tips prove insufficient) should be higher. Raising the minimum nationwide to New York City’s COL basically depopulates lower COL places; this is a source of generally misrepresented rural backlash against these broad-based schemes. Imagine if Germany and Greece had the same minimum wage; the latter would get screwed. (Not arguing that the federal minimum shouldn’t be raised. Just that it should be too low for most of the country, because if it isn’t, it’s too high for some, and that’s a policy failure for a minimum. I haven’t seen a scheme for a dynamic federal minimum; that would make sense.)
    - hirvi74 4y ago
      [flagged]
  - dfxm12 4y ago
    I'm not sure why this is (currently) getting downvoted. This is legally correct, at the federal level [0] and at every state level that I'm aware of. Also, wage theft is a huge issue in the US (and part of the problem is tipped employees not receiving the difference between what they actually made and the minimum wage) and is poorly enforced - https://wageadvocates.com/wage-theft-huge-problem-infographic/ https://wageadvocates.com/wage-theft-huge-problem-infographi... 0 - https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/faq/esa/flsa/002.htm https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/faq/esa/flsa/002.htm Here's a law in PA: https://www.dli.pa.gov/Individuals/Labor-Management-Relations/llc/Pages/Overtime-Rules.aspx#:~:text=Definition%20of%20Tipped%20Employee&text=If%20a%20tip%2Dcredited%20employee,at%20least%20%247.25%20per%20hour https://www.dli.pa.gov/Individuals/Labor-Management-Relation....
t344344 4y ago
It is a convenience fee, you pay for a luxury of not arguing.
- tristor 4y ago
  I know you're being facetious, but honestly this is basically what I've been told by people not being facetious in person when I complain about it. How is this any different than the Mob shaking people down? "It'd be a real shame if we 'inconvenienced' you."
  - t344344 4y ago
    I am not being "facetious". For me it is simply another custom in US, you have to pay for all sorts of stuff with hidden fees.
    - screamingninja 4y ago
      > you have to pay for all sorts of stuff with hidden fees You make it sound like an acceptable practice. What's your reasoning behind not questioning these "customs"?
      - t344344 4y ago
        Why would I care? US is bloody expensive already, some small fee is not going to save it. And I only visit US on business trips, that are covered by company. If you do not like it, get out.
pc86 4y ago
I've seen this service charge bullshit in Chicago as well, but at restaurants. 3% and 5% "service charges" with no explanation other than "we'll remove it if you want." It's not a tip, the waitstaff almost never knows what it is or where the money goes, only that it got added post-COVID and 99% of people don't even notice, and half the people that notice just pay it.
- OneLeggedCat 4y ago
  I really, really wish people would leave negative reviews at Yelp and Google and everywhere else when they see these 3% "service charges" that were never disclosed before I walked in. I will never knowingly choose to eat at a restaurant that does that kind of thing.
- rascul 4y ago
  > it got added post-COVID I remember being confused about paying both a service charge and a tip around 2002 or so in Maryland.
rr888 4y ago
> why the fuck am I paying you a 15% service charge for me Service charge is like not tipping, actually I kinda prefer this to having to look the cashier in the eye and choose which tip button.
- tristor 4y ago
  I can see this argument, although I don't agree. It's only marginally acceptable if it's either 1. VERY up front, or 2. Doesn't exist and is incorporated directly into the price. The biggest issue is it is mandatory and its impersonal. If it's mandatory and impersonal, it's /not/ a tip, and it shouldn't be percentage based. If the business wants to raise prices, raise prices. Tacking on additional costs that are not correctly and appropriately represented in the price is basically fraud, and it's doubly uncouth because my understanding is that most businesses don't give this service charge to the workers, it's just treated as revenue.
- OneLeggedCat 4y ago
  I much prefer the product to be charged 15% more to begin with, rather than the shameful manipulative dishonesty at the end.
sdfghswe 4y ago
> It's getting out of control in the US. Tips are supposed to be for service workers, not for anyone who you interact with in any way while conducting a basic business transaction. People who are performing a direct personal service for you. In the US now, businesses expect you to tip on take-out orders, at drive through windows, at every form of eatery, there's even tips expected now at some retailers. As a European living in the USA, the distinction always seemed made up for me. If someone delivers a take-out order, why is that less worthy of tipping, than if you're in a restaurant? What about the person who bundles the order together for delivery? What about the person doing the cooking? Etc etc etc. The answer is that you're used to tipping at a restaurant and never questioned it, but when some other tipping is introduced you rightly recognize it as an abuse.
- JohnFen 4y ago
  Tipping turned into a kind of extortion racket in the US at least a couple of generations ago.
- inportb 4y ago
  > If someone delivers a take-out order, why is that less worthy of tipping, than if you're in a restaurant? It's not. If you were at the restaurant, you'd tip the server. If you were home, you'd tip the deliverer. If you picked it up yourself, why then you could tip yourself :) > you're using to tipping at a restaurant and never questioned it Now that's a bold assumption :) How about, tipping at a restaurant is part of the culture, and many people do so begrudgingly? Dissecting this meme reveals that people are comfortable tipping for the act of waiting on them (the so-called service). The person who cooks and the person who bundles supposedly serve the institution, and so they should be paid by the institution. Or so it would seem. The waiter and the driver also ultimately work for the institution, so one could argue that they, too, should be paid adequately by the institution. Tips should be reserved for exceptional service to you beyond what they're expected to perform for the institution. So if the cashier at the takeout place made you happy and you wanted to tip him/her for that... you could knock yourself out. It's worthy of tipping because you felt like it.
- slackdog 4y ago
  > In the US now, businesses expect you to tip on take-out orders, at drive through windows, at every form of eatery, there's even tips expected now at some retailers. This does not match my experience at all. You may see tip jars in those places, but there is never an expectation (in the soft-obligation sense) that anybody tip into any tip jar ever. The only place where tips are considered soft-obligatory are waitresses and food delivery, and in those cases you leave the tip on the table or hand it to the person yourself. Tipping into jars may be desired but is never expected. Are you perhaps an immigrant to or tourist of America? I can see how foreigners might get confused by the tip jars and not pick up on this nuance since it isn't explicitly spelled out anywhere on the jar, but I don't think people integrated into American culture perceive any sort of obligation to tip into jars. If you sit in a shop and watch people order, you'll surely see that the overwhelming majority of people never put anything into the jar. (From what I have seen in Canada, all of this is true there as well. Tips for waitresses are socially obligatory, while tips into jars are not.)
Fire-Dragon-DoL 4y ago
What about an icecream server? Is that tippable? The lines are so blurry
- tristor 4y ago
  No. I don't tip for counter service, only table service or bar service. Counter service is basically take-out. There is no logical reason anyone should tip at an ice cream parlor or a coffee shop, and the fact it's become commonplace is part of what I'm railing against.
  - Fire-Dragon-DoL 4y ago
    Well I asked because putting gelato on a cone could be perceived as a personal service, since the amount of gelato that goes on a cone varies in size based on the server. As I said, it's not black and white. And don't get me wrong, I'd ban tipping if it was possible.
yibg 4y ago
My personal pet peeve here is asking for tip before the service at places where you order and pay first, sit down and they bring you the food. There is SOME service here; they bring you water, napkins etc. But how would I know what the service is going to be like before hand?
mock-possum 4y ago
it honestly drives me up the wall how unwilling people are recognize that tipping is primarily for the benefit of business owners.

talideon 4y ago

I'd be even more restrictive than that: everyone should get a proper minimum wage, regardless of the line of work they're in, regardless of whether they're performing a direct personal service for you. Tipping should be for exceptional service. Nobody should need tips to make ends meet.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> everyone should get a proper minimum wage, regardless of the line of work they're in, regardless of whether they're performing a direct personal service for you In America, this is the law. It’s poorly enforced, unfortunately.
- hiddencost 4y ago
  Naw. Minimum wage is not a living wage for the vast majority of the population. Hasn't even pretended to pace inflation.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > Minimum wage is not a living wage for the vast majority of the population Minimum should be just that: minimum. For higher COL cities, the minimum (and tipped minimum, with an obligation to make the minimum if tips prove insufficient) should be higher. Raising the minimum nationwide to New York City’s COL basically depopulates lower COL places; this is a source of generally misrepresented rural backlash against these broad-based schemes. Imagine if Germany and Greece had the same minimum wage; the latter would get screwed. (Not arguing that the federal minimum shouldn’t be raised. Just that it should be too low for most of the country, because if it isn’t, it’s too high for some, and that’s a policy failure for a minimum. I haven’t seen a scheme for a dynamic federal minimum; that would make sense.)
  - hirvi74 4y ago
    [flagged]
- dfxm12 4y ago
  I'm not sure why this is (currently) getting downvoted. This is legally correct, at the federal level [0] and at every state level that I'm aware of. Also, wage theft is a huge issue in the US (and part of the problem is tipped employees not receiving the difference between what they actually made and the minimum wage) and is poorly enforced - https://wageadvocates.com/wage-theft-huge-problem-infographic/ https://wageadvocates.com/wage-theft-huge-problem-infographi... 0 - https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/faq/esa/flsa/002.htm https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/faq/esa/flsa/002.htm Here's a law in PA: https://www.dli.pa.gov/Individuals/Labor-Management-Relations/llc/Pages/Overtime-Rules.aspx#:~:text=Definition%20of%20Tipped%20Employee&text=If%20a%20tip%2Dcredited%20employee,at%20least%20%247.25%20per%20hour https://www.dli.pa.gov/Individuals/Labor-Management-Relation....

t344344 4y ago

It is a convenience fee, you pay for a luxury of not arguing.

tristor 4y ago
I know you're being facetious, but honestly this is basically what I've been told by people not being facetious in person when I complain about it. How is this any different than the Mob shaking people down? "It'd be a real shame if we 'inconvenienced' you."
- t344344 4y ago
  I am not being "facetious". For me it is simply another custom in US, you have to pay for all sorts of stuff with hidden fees.
  - screamingninja 4y ago
    > you have to pay for all sorts of stuff with hidden fees You make it sound like an acceptable practice. What's your reasoning behind not questioning these "customs"?
    - t344344 4y ago
      Why would I care? US is bloody expensive already, some small fee is not going to save it. And I only visit US on business trips, that are covered by company. If you do not like it, get out.

pc86 4y ago

I've seen this service charge bullshit in Chicago as well, but at restaurants. 3% and 5% "service charges" with no explanation other than "we'll remove it if you want." It's not a tip, the waitstaff almost never knows what it is or where the money goes, only that it got added post-COVID and 99% of people don't even notice, and half the people that notice just pay it.

OneLeggedCat 4y ago
I really, really wish people would leave negative reviews at Yelp and Google and everywhere else when they see these 3% "service charges" that were never disclosed before I walked in. I will never knowingly choose to eat at a restaurant that does that kind of thing.
rascul 4y ago
> it got added post-COVID I remember being confused about paying both a service charge and a tip around 2002 or so in Maryland.

rr888 4y ago

> why the fuck am I paying you a 15% service charge for me Service charge is like not tipping, actually I kinda prefer this to having to look the cashier in the eye and choose which tip button.

tristor 4y ago
I can see this argument, although I don't agree. It's only marginally acceptable if it's either 1. VERY up front, or 2. Doesn't exist and is incorporated directly into the price. The biggest issue is it is mandatory and its impersonal. If it's mandatory and impersonal, it's /not/ a tip, and it shouldn't be percentage based. If the business wants to raise prices, raise prices. Tacking on additional costs that are not correctly and appropriately represented in the price is basically fraud, and it's doubly uncouth because my understanding is that most businesses don't give this service charge to the workers, it's just treated as revenue.
OneLeggedCat 4y ago
I much prefer the product to be charged 15% more to begin with, rather than the shameful manipulative dishonesty at the end.

sdfghswe 4y ago

> It's getting out of control in the US. Tips are supposed to be for service workers, not for anyone who you interact with in any way while conducting a basic business transaction. People who are performing a direct personal service for you. In the US now, businesses expect you to tip on take-out orders, at drive through windows, at every form of eatery, there's even tips expected now at some retailers. As a European living in the USA, the distinction always seemed made up for me. If someone delivers a take-out order, why is that less worthy of tipping, than if you're in a restaurant? What about the person who bundles the order together for delivery? What about the person doing the cooking? Etc etc etc. The answer is that you're used to tipping at a restaurant and never questioned it, but when some other tipping is introduced you rightly recognize it as an abuse.

JohnFen 4y ago
Tipping turned into a kind of extortion racket in the US at least a couple of generations ago.
inportb 4y ago
> If someone delivers a take-out order, why is that less worthy of tipping, than if you're in a restaurant? It's not. If you were at the restaurant, you'd tip the server. If you were home, you'd tip the deliverer. If you picked it up yourself, why then you could tip yourself :) > you're using to tipping at a restaurant and never questioned it Now that's a bold assumption :) How about, tipping at a restaurant is part of the culture, and many people do so begrudgingly? Dissecting this meme reveals that people are comfortable tipping for the act of waiting on them (the so-called service). The person who cooks and the person who bundles supposedly serve the institution, and so they should be paid by the institution. Or so it would seem. The waiter and the driver also ultimately work for the institution, so one could argue that they, too, should be paid adequately by the institution. Tips should be reserved for exceptional service to you beyond what they're expected to perform for the institution. So if the cashier at the takeout place made you happy and you wanted to tip him/her for that... you could knock yourself out. It's worthy of tipping because you felt like it.
slackdog 4y ago
> In the US now, businesses expect you to tip on take-out orders, at drive through windows, at every form of eatery, there's even tips expected now at some retailers. This does not match my experience at all. You may see tip jars in those places, but there is never an expectation (in the soft-obligation sense) that anybody tip into any tip jar ever. The only place where tips are considered soft-obligatory are waitresses and food delivery, and in those cases you leave the tip on the table or hand it to the person yourself. Tipping into jars may be desired but is never expected. Are you perhaps an immigrant to or tourist of America? I can see how foreigners might get confused by the tip jars and not pick up on this nuance since it isn't explicitly spelled out anywhere on the jar, but I don't think people integrated into American culture perceive any sort of obligation to tip into jars. If you sit in a shop and watch people order, you'll surely see that the overwhelming majority of people never put anything into the jar. (From what I have seen in Canada, all of this is true there as well. Tips for waitresses are socially obligatory, while tips into jars are not.)

Fire-Dragon-DoL 4y ago

What about an icecream server? Is that tippable? The lines are so blurry

tristor 4y ago
No. I don't tip for counter service, only table service or bar service. Counter service is basically take-out. There is no logical reason anyone should tip at an ice cream parlor or a coffee shop, and the fact it's become commonplace is part of what I'm railing against.
- Fire-Dragon-DoL 4y ago
  Well I asked because putting gelato on a cone could be perceived as a personal service, since the amount of gelato that goes on a cone varies in size based on the server. As I said, it's not black and white. And don't get me wrong, I'd ban tipping if it was possible.

yibg 4y ago

My personal pet peeve here is asking for tip before the service at places where you order and pay first, sit down and they bring you the food. There is SOME service here; they bring you water, napkins etc. But how would I know what the service is going to be like before hand?

mock-possum 4y ago

it honestly drives me up the wall how unwilling people are recognize that tipping is primarily for the benefit of business owners.