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> You know why these substances exist right? Because the prior substances were cutting a hole in the ozone layer. Refrigeration may end up back where it origin

> You know why these substances exist right? Because the prior substances were cutting a hole in the ozone layer. Refrigeration may end up back where it originally started (before freon even), using ammonia. Ammonia is somewhat dangerous on a local level (you don't want an ammonia leak in your house..) but AFAIK it doesn't eat up ozone and the local hazard is something that can be mitigated with the right sort of product design.

labcomputer 4y ago
> Ammonia is somewhat dangerous on a local level Like saying that the Ohio train disaster may cause lung irritation, that quite undersells the problem. Ammonia refrigeration is inherently dangerous and has been banned from domestic refrigerators for a long time for good reason. Some regulations are written in blood.
- slackdog 4y ago
  I think it could be possible to use ammonia in domestic refrigerators safely if appropriate measures were taken. Particularly, require that refrigerators be installed with vent pipes leading from a tamper-resistant enclosure straight to the outside. Such vents would be similar to those used in waste plumbing to protect people from toxic sewer gasses like hydrogen sulfide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drain-waste-vent_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drain-waste-vent_system But jabl is probably right and something like propane would make more sense.
jabl 4y ago
I don't think we'll see ammonia used in domestic refrigeration. Industrial use, sure. I think what we'll see for domestic refrigerants (refrigerators, AC, heat pumps) is hydrocarbons like propane or butane (already a reality for refrigerators in most of the world), and in some cases CO2.
- kragen 4y ago
  i went to a hotel with an ammonia refrigerator in the kitchen a couple of weeks ago
  - oliveshell 4y ago
    Yeah, ammonia is very common in industrial refrigeration, especially big specialized systems that need tons and tons of refrigerant, as illustrated by this famous accident in which 30,000 lb. of the stuff was released: https://www.csb.gov/millard-refrigerated-services-ammonia-release/ https://www.csb.gov/millard-refrigerated-services-ammonia-re...
    - kragen 4y ago
      this was a 60-liter fridge with 117 grams of ammonia in it in the kitchen of the hotel suite

labcomputer 4y ago

> Ammonia is somewhat dangerous on a local level Like saying that the Ohio train disaster may cause lung irritation, that quite undersells the problem. Ammonia refrigeration is inherently dangerous and has been banned from domestic refrigerators for a long time for good reason. Some regulations are written in blood.

slackdog 4y ago
I think it could be possible to use ammonia in domestic refrigerators safely if appropriate measures were taken. Particularly, require that refrigerators be installed with vent pipes leading from a tamper-resistant enclosure straight to the outside. Such vents would be similar to those used in waste plumbing to protect people from toxic sewer gasses like hydrogen sulfide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drain-waste-vent_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drain-waste-vent_system But jabl is probably right and something like propane would make more sense.

jabl 4y ago

I don't think we'll see ammonia used in domestic refrigeration. Industrial use, sure. I think what we'll see for domestic refrigerants (refrigerators, AC, heat pumps) is hydrocarbons like propane or butane (already a reality for refrigerators in most of the world), and in some cases CO2.

kragen 4y ago
i went to a hotel with an ammonia refrigerator in the kitchen a couple of weeks ago
- oliveshell 4y ago
  Yeah, ammonia is very common in industrial refrigeration, especially big specialized systems that need tons and tons of refrigerant, as illustrated by this famous accident in which 30,000 lb. of the stuff was released: https://www.csb.gov/millard-refrigerated-services-ammonia-release/ https://www.csb.gov/millard-refrigerated-services-ammonia-re...
  - kragen 4y ago
    this was a 60-liter fridge with 117 grams of ammonia in it in the kitchen of the hotel suite