9 ms·

Canadians think tipping is ‘getting out of control,’ new poll suggest

68 points by nithinj 4y ago

Overtonwindow 4y ago
I think over time, maybe in just a year or two, westerners will reach tip burnout. It may not grow to have people choosing not to go out because of tipping, but I think it will have an effect where people become numb to tipping. They will tip the barest minimum, have no guilt about hitting zero at the coffee shop, etc. Essentially tipflation will cause tip requests to lose any moral obligation. Kind of like when the grocery store asks you to donate $1 to St. Judge. If you press Yes, great! Thank you, but I suspect many of us automatically press no without another thought. That no without thought will be how people tip in the future...
- hdesh 4y ago
  This is a future vision I can get behind.
- rafale 4y ago
  >> It may not grow to have people choosing not to go out because of tipping. It did for me personally. It was a huge motivator in learning to cook at home.
- bombcar 4y ago
  There's "ok we'll tip" areas that people expect (sit-down restaurant, bar, delivery) but the proliferation of "tablet payments" that default to having a tip section is out of control. And the middle-ground of "do I tip for pickup?" which society hasn't really nailed down yet, too. I don't forsee the US going entirely tip-free, but the number of places you tip could certainly decline (nobody tips at McDonalds, and few tip at Dominos for pickup, even though you can). Maybe the IRS could do something to making receiving income via tips tax disadvantaged (and loudly, publicly) so that alternate methods would work. I do know a number of tip-employees who would hate that; they make quite good money on tips.
  - mywittyname 4y ago
    > Maybe the IRS could do something to making receiving income via tips tax disadvantaged (and loudly, publicly) Tips should be treated as income to the business if the business collects it, because that's exactly what it is. Yeah, this would suck for workers who rely on tips. But the blame for this lies with business leaders; they are the ones who have chosen to abuse this loophole for personal gain.
- JohnFen 4y ago
  I've already reached tip burnout. I used to be a great supporter of tipped positions and would tip generously, but it's all gotten so out of control. I now just refuse to tip at all, except in restaurants where I've scaled back to 10%. And even that irritates me anymore.
  - laylomo2 4y ago
    I’m heading in this direction too. It’s ridiculous. I don’t tip for any kind of pickup order. And only tip service people such as waiters, bar staff, and delivery people.
  - pc86 4y ago
    Serious question - why are you punishing waitstaff because everyone post-COVID has decided they deserve tips for everything? That has nothing to do with them. My wife thinks I'm pretty stingy on non-restaurant tipping. I won't tip for pickup, online orders, the type of thing mentioned here. But that doesn't mean a server at a restaurant suddenly did a worse job or deserves a 40-50% pay cut. My default is 20% and I can count on one hand the number of times in the last year or so I've gone under that, and many times have gone over. 10% is borderline "something happened where I need to talk to a manager" territory.
    - JohnFen 4y ago
      It's a compromise position. My intention is not to punish the wait staff, but the tipping status quo needs also needs to change, and how else will that change happen other than by resisting the status quo? So I tip the wait staff, but now I tip the traditional amount rather than the "enhanced" rates. I figure that it's better than just not tipping at all, or not going to the restaurant (when the wait staff would get nothing). What actually needs to happen is that businesses need to start paying their employees a realistic wage and building that into the prices they charge. There are a couple of restaurants in town that do this and don't allow tipping. I preferentially eat at those. But don't get me wrong here -- I'm talking about default tipping. If I actually get above-average service, even in settings outside of restaurants, I'll tip more. Also, I never tip on the card. Always cash.
    - 4y ago
- great_psy 4y ago
  I’ve been there for a while. It’s getting out of hand, and has been since COVID. During COVID I felt good about tipping because small businesses and restaurants were struggling, so it felt like I was doing something positive. But then businesses got greedy, not only did they increase the prices (+50-100%) in some cases, but also increased the pre-programmed tipping percentages. Pre COVID used to be (12,15,20), now it is more like (18,22,25). With the increase in prices I would actually tipping more $ even if they kept the percentages the same. But it’s the greed of increasing percentages that is getting out of hand. And also where tips are expected. Getting a drip coffee, a place where they just hand you the cup but you pour it yourself asked for a tip. What exactly did you do as a server in this case? Getting an ice cream … you scooped it up and handed it to me. That’s your job, I am not sure what you did beyond your job description to get a tip. I’m at the point where I just hit no tip out of spite for places that I don’t think deserve to have a tipping option to start with. Restaurants, haircuts and bars are fair game, but I still think service has to be above par for more than 15% tip.
- jobigoud 4y ago
  > I think over time, maybe in just a year or two, westerners will reach tip burnout. I think it can last much longer. As a European I already don't understand it and I feel you should have reached tip burnout ten years ago. But the culture hasn't changed it went worse. The dark patterns must be working. Tipping is spreading means more and more people are at the receiving end of it and depend on it, these people aren't going to complain about it.
l-lousy 4y ago
Yep, very true. Some places are even asking for a tip when I just order for pickup which doesn’t make sense, it’s just a voluntary service charge at that point? As a result I and many others are just going out less. This means less income for those in the service industry, so they might need to charge a bigger tip from those who do choose to dine in. Not a great feedback loop
- bombcar 4y ago
  Part of the "tip for pickup" is that many restaurants ran on "pooled tips" where the tips would support/subsidize not only the waitresses, but also the bus boy, cooks, etc. When they went full-online during covid with only pickup, they wanted to keep those people, and so suggested that you tip even on pickup. I'd much rather just see increased prices where tips are no longer "needed" but I don't know how we'll get there.
  - great_psy 4y ago
    Prices are already increased. We had pretty bad inflation for the last year. At some point some of the zombie businesses need to die and make room for the profitable ones that can pay their workers.
- mdasen 4y ago
  I'm also very unclear on who gets the tip for a pickup order. In my state, it's illegal to share the tips with back-of-house staff (ie. the people cooking the food). Am I just tipping the person who hands me the food? The online system took my order, took my payment, and printed the ticket. The food preparation staff made my food. I walk in, give my name to the person at the counter, and they hand me the bag. That person is the only one who serves customers directly in that system so they're the only one eligible for tips in my state.
giarc 4y ago
At quick stop restaurants, I always feel guilty hitting the $0 tip option and I feel like I might get worse service because of it. I wonder if they should implement something similar to Tim Horton's charity camp set up. They have tap devices at the register that is set to a $2 amount. Just tap your card and donation made. I'd rather they have that for tipping then it built into the POS.
- Beldin 4y ago
  I'd rather they charge a price for their foods that allows them to pay the folks involved decently. If I'm not willing to pay that amount, no problem, I can just turn around and leave instead of sitting down.
  - giarc 4y ago
    Sure, but where I live the minimum wage is $15/hr (and many pay more than that to attract workers).
tristor 4y ago
It's getting out of control in the US. Tips are supposed to be for service workers, not for anyone who you interact with in any way while conducting a basic business transaction. People who are performing a direct personal service for you. In the US now, businesses expect you to tip on take-out orders, at drive through windows, at every form of eatery, there's even tips expected now at some retailers. The roles that are appropriate to tip didn't change just because everyone felt like it was okay to ask for a tip. You tip barbers, doormen, bellhops, shoe shines, wait staff, delivery drivers, and bartenders. That's basically it. If a worker is not rendering you a direct personal service, they should not be tipped and their employer being passive-aggressive about it is hoping enough of their staff get tipped they can start paying the tipped minimum wage instead of paying a normal wage for their job role. What a lot of people don't get is that opposing the expansion of tipping isn't a negative for the workers, it's a negative for the business owners. The business owners /want/ society to expect to tip workers, because they can pay them $2.15/hr instead of $17/hr in a major metro as long as they clear federal minimum wage after tips. Stop the madness, and stop tipping people who are not in direct service roles. What's super fucked is that in SF I am seeing most businesses just add it on the check as a mandatory service charge and require you to argue with them. Like, why the fuck am I paying you a 15% service charge for me to walk to your restaurant and pick up my order off a shelf and walk back to where I'm staying after I ordered online. We both know that money isn't going to the kitchen staff, it's lining the business owner's pocket and is a fraudulent way for them to raise prices by forcing a fee on you that you have to argue about. If I'm ordering on the web and picking up, and not even speaking to anybody in the process, what "service" did I receive?
- talideon 4y ago
  I'd be even more restrictive than that: everyone should get a proper minimum wage, regardless of the line of work they're in, regardless of whether they're performing a direct personal service for you. Tipping should be for exceptional service. Nobody should need tips to make ends meet.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > everyone should get a proper minimum wage, regardless of the line of work they're in, regardless of whether they're performing a direct personal service for you In America, this is the law. It’s poorly enforced, unfortunately.
aleksiy123 4y ago
Would be nice to get some regulation for this. It's really getting ridiculous.
- version_five 4y ago
  I think it's ridiculous too, but regulation is completely overkill. The government doesn't need to protect people from something so insignificant. Don't tip where you don't want to, don't go to counter service places that ask you to tip if it bothers you, and complain to the management or owners about the policy. We don't need a nanny state intervening in something like this, we're all adults
  - mywittyname 4y ago
    Tipping is already enshrined into law. It's not "nanny state intervention" to revisit laws that are now being usedin a manner that's completely different from the spirit in which they were first written. Consumers feel tricked or pressured into tipping, despite having little to no understanding around who is receiving those tips and why. This makes this a consumer protection situation. If that lack of clarity extends to the workers, then it also becomes a worker protection situation. The government went down this path when it decided to encourage special treatment for tipped workers. So we need to either remove this special treatment, or update the laws to reflect modern reality.
  - genocidicbunny 4y ago
    I think there's place for some regulation. Not for getting rid of tipping, but making sure it is well defined. For example, legislating that tips can only be requested after service has been rendered (no more pre-tipping on delivery orders) or requiring that any 'living wage' fees or the like that have now become so common are fully paid out to the employees as tips.
davesque 4y ago
Maybe I'm a cold hearted bastard but I haven't found myself struggling with this. I just simply don't tip if it's not delivery or dine-in. Otherwise, I've tried to adjust my tipping sensibility for inflation when the tip is not percentage based. And I've just essentially stopped using things like Doordash where there's already like $7 or $8 tacked onto the bill even before tip.
- genocidicbunny 4y ago
  I've come to share this sentiment as well. I used to be a generous tipper -- leaving 20% on a takeout order and the like, but as I've come to find some of the biggest resistance to getting rid of tipping is from the tipped workers themselves. And while I do get it, they can make significantly more than non-tipped minimum wage, I'm pretty tired of being expected to directly pay their wages. My sympathy for their situation does not extend to being punished for having it.
- yrdmb 4y ago
  > And I've just essentially stopped using things like Doordash where there's already like $7 or $8 tacked onto the bill even before tip. They lure you in with "25% off first 5 orders" or "March Madness special" but offset that with ridiculous service charges. Years ago when delivery services were in their infancy and trying to grow, their discounts were awesome. Now that they are established, most of their discounts aren't discounts at all. Pity.
  - rascul 4y ago
    I keep getting Uber Eats emails with offers for $20 food free. So I go to the website, order about $15 of food, Uber still wants to collect $25 from me for all the various fees and charges, but oh, they don't deliver to my area and the offer is only for delivery. Oh well, I guess I won't be spending an additional $10 more than normal to get my food "free" today.
- the_snooze 4y ago
  There's nothing wrong with tipping nothing. It isn't personal. It's just business. If they want more money, raise prices.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
clircle 4y ago
My family has curtailed eating out to just once or twice and month. Partly because we don't like to tip. On the other hand, I don't see any issue with businesses asking for more money, which can easily be declined.
lykahb 4y ago
Tipping also creates more space to display your bias. A customer can give zero tip for certain demographics and deny their wage. By the way, as a fresh immigrant I nearly never tipped. I'd do this only if the service was exceptional. This changed once I learned that the staff makes less than the minimal wage because of tipping.
- genocidicbunny 4y ago
  > Tipping also creates more space to display your bias. One of the reasons tipping became a big thing in the US was specifically so people could display their bias without running terribly afoul of the law. Tipping allowed people to discriminate against minority workers, who were thus forced to be pretty much servile to have any hope of being paid decently. > This changed once I learned that the staff makes less than the minimal wage because of tipping. I don't recall if this was originally the case when the tipped vs non-tipped minimum wages were established, but by law if a tipped worker's tips + base wage doesn't add up to the non-tipped minimum wage, the employer still needs to pay the difference. In practice though, that worker is getting fired. As I also said in another comment, some of the most vehement supporters of tipping nowadays are tipped workers, or at least a subset of them. So I wouldn't feel terrible about tipping less.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > allowed wealthier restaurant patrons to discriminate against minority workers Curious for evidence of this. I’ve seen minorities treated quite horribly in non- and low-tipping Germany. And London’s restaurants feature a level of self-effacing service that makes even this Manhattanite blush.
    - genocidicbunny 4y ago
      Treating minorities badly is unfortunately a timeless worldwide phenomenon. If you look at the history of tipping in the US, some states banned the practice early on too, but were eventually forced to unban it, partially because many southern states kept and fought for the practice. If you consider the circumstances that this was right after the US Civil War, and right during the heavy southern pushback against emancipation, it's not a terribly hard line to draw between wanting to keep tipping as a practice, and treating minorities bad. And when in 1938 the federal minimum wage was established, and they made the tipped one significantly lower, it enshrined the ability to use tipping to legally discriminate in law. > And London’s restaurants feature a level of self-effacing service that makes even this Manhattanite blush. I believe tipping originally came to the US from the continent, with the practice being especially promoted by the British wealthy.
dboreham 4y ago
In the UK there's a trend to add "optional" service charges to restaurant bills. France seems to be one place where this hasn't happened yet.
- dudul 4y ago
  I'm always hesitant about speaking for an entire country, but I'm pretty sure tipping in a restaurant in France would be considered borderline insulting.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    I was in Paris recently and all the restaurants that were "tourist-enabled" (e.g, had an English menu) didn't seem at all worried about the tablet credit card machine having a tip option.
  - rr888 4y ago
    Doesn't France have a standardized 15% service charge.
    - dudul 4y ago
      Yes it's included in the prices. Technically it's supposed to go to waiters, but I don't think it really happens. They just get a "livable" flat wage. Back in the days it was customary to just leave the change when paying for your meal in cash, but it was rarely the equivalent of more than a dollar or two.
- dfxm12 4y ago
  There is definitely no such trend in Japan.
pupppet 4y ago
Asking for tips on take-out orders is total BS and everyone's doing it now. Sorry I'm not rewarding you for a product I haven't even tried yet.
- genocidicbunny 4y ago
  It's usually both amusing and disappointing to visit some of the gig-worker communities (especially the doordash ones) where they complain about people not tipping enough to get their orders picked up and delivered. Those aren't tips anymore, they're bribes.
  - rjbwork 4y ago
    They're really more like...gas fees on the Ethereum chain, or spot electricity prices, I guess. It's a dynamically priced transaction fee based on instantaneous supply and demand. If you don't bid enough, you don't get your energy/money transfer/food.
    - genocidicbunny 4y ago
      And that's perfectly fine by me, as long as they stop calling it a tip. Call it a 'delivery bid' and make it clear that if you don't bid enough, your order may be significantly delayed, cold, damaged or improperly handled, if delivered at all. Of course Doordash et al don't want to do that because the optics are pretty frakking bad.
- liquidwax 4y ago
  In places where you pay upfront at the register and wait for your order, it almost feels like blackmail. Tipping happens at the time of placing the order. Not saying everyone does this but can't be sure that nothing fishy happens if someone tips low/min.
  - cholantesh 4y ago
    One dark pattern I saw recently was a Clover/Square POS that set 15% as a minimum, and no clearly visible option to decline.
amiramir 4y ago
Canada seem to have imported the tipping culture and default tipping amounts (a la Square Register) from the US. The explanation for tipping in the US has been the lack of national healthcare and a social safety net. I live in the NYC and grew up in London and Paris. In Paris tipping was culturally seen as optional and generally reserved for instances of great service. London was similar way back when with 50p or a quid being a tip. When I got to the US tipping was a much bigger deal and has only grown over time. The explanation was that service workers don't get paid enough and unlike in the UK, France, and Canada there is no universal healthcare or safety net so we need to subsidize the employers to make the workers whole and safe which seems like a weird concept all around, unless you are an employer.
- Beldin 4y ago
  > The explanation was that service workers don't get paid enough The fact that this custom is not only not illegal but even outright defended by folks from the US, was always weird to me.
- hervature 4y ago
  As a Canadian who lives in the US, I actually think this is playing a large role. When I was growing up, 15% was considered "good" and customary. In the US, that's basically the minimum and the expectation is higher (18-25%). Canadians have a reputation of being poor tippers in the US for this precise reason. Coupling the COVID tip creep with the American expectation has been a double whammy for Canadians.
- cholantesh 4y ago
  I mean, the cost of living in Canada is high despite the presence of a social safety net. Not saying that tipping is justified, but wage stagnation and employment precarity isn't a phenomenon unique to the US.
MomoXenosaga 4y ago
I was in a restaurant and somebody asked me: how much do you want to tip? I just stood there in total silence trying to process the horror. You can come to the Netherlands and never learn the language but there are lines a man cannot cross. Lesson 1 of globalization: only import the good parts.
hirvi74 4y ago
To add on to what others are saying, I have always hated the argument that some business owners counter with by saying something along the lines of, "Without tips, we would have to raise the prices of our service." Especially recently, I have noticed that many (more like all) businesses have raised their prices anyway, and I do not believe it's solely due to inflation and supply side issues. Not one bit; absolute unfettered greed. I think many business owners do not realize the reality of owning a business -- not all of them can and should survive. If you can't afford to pay your employees a living wage, then have fun with your Chapter 7 or 11 Bankruptcy.
- JohnFen 4y ago
  > "Without tips, we would have to raise the prices of our service." Which is an exceedingly stupid argument, because the effect is exactly the same as if they raised their prices.
IYasha 4y ago
Ahh, the luxury of living in (otherwise hell on earth) tipless country! )
bilsbie 4y ago
As much as I hate tipping, the worst restaurant service I ever had was in a restaurant that eliminated tips. The staff never checked on me and acted like I was annoying them when I asked for anything.
- screamingninja 4y ago
  > the worst restaurant service I ever had was in a restaurant that eliminated tips That is a self correcting issue IMHO. The management can incentivize excellent service or lose business. Customers continue to vote by spending their $$$ elsewhere. Poor service could be a result of disgruntled workers after that policy change but with the management's involvement, it should normalize over time.
pyrolistical 4y ago
Everybody just wants more money on both sides. Customers want to be able to spend the least amount of money going out. Business want to maximize their income. Tipping (and added taxes/fees) is just mudding the water. It is making it harder for consumers to see what is the real price is for the goods/services. As a consumer I want all businesses to be forced to have explicit upfront pricing so they can all compete over. Some businesses will die but this is better in the long term
bparsons 4y ago
This is the market applying a band-aid to a structural problem of low wages for service workers. If I am at Whistler at a liquor store, I tip the cashier because I know that the cost of living there is the most expensive in the world. The housing situation is horrendous. I wish that the minimum wage was $25/hr and we didn't have to do this, but it isn't so I tip.

68 points by nithinj 4y ago

I think over time, maybe in just a year or two, westerners will reach tip burnout. It may not grow to have people choosing not to go out because of tipping, but I think it will have an effect where people become numb to tipping. They will tip the barest minimum, have no guilt about hitting zero at the coffee shop, etc. Essentially tipflation will cause tip requests to lose any moral obligation. Kind of like when the grocery store asks you to donate $1 to St. Judge. If you press Yes, great! Thank you, but I suspect many of us automatically press no without another thought. That no without thought will be how people tip in the future...

hdesh 4y ago
This is a future vision I can get behind.
rafale 4y ago
>> It may not grow to have people choosing not to go out because of tipping. It did for me personally. It was a huge motivator in learning to cook at home.
bombcar 4y ago
There's "ok we'll tip" areas that people expect (sit-down restaurant, bar, delivery) but the proliferation of "tablet payments" that default to having a tip section is out of control. And the middle-ground of "do I tip for pickup?" which society hasn't really nailed down yet, too. I don't forsee the US going entirely tip-free, but the number of places you tip could certainly decline (nobody tips at McDonalds, and few tip at Dominos for pickup, even though you can). Maybe the IRS could do something to making receiving income via tips tax disadvantaged (and loudly, publicly) so that alternate methods would work. I do know a number of tip-employees who would hate that; they make quite good money on tips.
- mywittyname 4y ago
  > Maybe the IRS could do something to making receiving income via tips tax disadvantaged (and loudly, publicly) Tips should be treated as income to the business if the business collects it, because that's exactly what it is. Yeah, this would suck for workers who rely on tips. But the blame for this lies with business leaders; they are the ones who have chosen to abuse this loophole for personal gain.
JohnFen 4y ago
I've already reached tip burnout. I used to be a great supporter of tipped positions and would tip generously, but it's all gotten so out of control. I now just refuse to tip at all, except in restaurants where I've scaled back to 10%. And even that irritates me anymore.
- laylomo2 4y ago
  I’m heading in this direction too. It’s ridiculous. I don’t tip for any kind of pickup order. And only tip service people such as waiters, bar staff, and delivery people.
- pc86 4y ago
  Serious question - why are you punishing waitstaff because everyone post-COVID has decided they deserve tips for everything? That has nothing to do with them. My wife thinks I'm pretty stingy on non-restaurant tipping. I won't tip for pickup, online orders, the type of thing mentioned here. But that doesn't mean a server at a restaurant suddenly did a worse job or deserves a 40-50% pay cut. My default is 20% and I can count on one hand the number of times in the last year or so I've gone under that, and many times have gone over. 10% is borderline "something happened where I need to talk to a manager" territory.
  - JohnFen 4y ago
    It's a compromise position. My intention is not to punish the wait staff, but the tipping status quo needs also needs to change, and how else will that change happen other than by resisting the status quo? So I tip the wait staff, but now I tip the traditional amount rather than the "enhanced" rates. I figure that it's better than just not tipping at all, or not going to the restaurant (when the wait staff would get nothing). What actually needs to happen is that businesses need to start paying their employees a realistic wage and building that into the prices they charge. There are a couple of restaurants in town that do this and don't allow tipping. I preferentially eat at those. But don't get me wrong here -- I'm talking about default tipping. If I actually get above-average service, even in settings outside of restaurants, I'll tip more. Also, I never tip on the card. Always cash.
  - 4y ago
great_psy 4y ago
I’ve been there for a while. It’s getting out of hand, and has been since COVID. During COVID I felt good about tipping because small businesses and restaurants were struggling, so it felt like I was doing something positive. But then businesses got greedy, not only did they increase the prices (+50-100%) in some cases, but also increased the pre-programmed tipping percentages. Pre COVID used to be (12,15,20), now it is more like (18,22,25). With the increase in prices I would actually tipping more $ even if they kept the percentages the same. But it’s the greed of increasing percentages that is getting out of hand. And also where tips are expected. Getting a drip coffee, a place where they just hand you the cup but you pour it yourself asked for a tip. What exactly did you do as a server in this case? Getting an ice cream … you scooped it up and handed it to me. That’s your job, I am not sure what you did beyond your job description to get a tip. I’m at the point where I just hit no tip out of spite for places that I don’t think deserve to have a tipping option to start with. Restaurants, haircuts and bars are fair game, but I still think service has to be above par for more than 15% tip.
jobigoud 4y ago
> I think over time, maybe in just a year or two, westerners will reach tip burnout. I think it can last much longer. As a European I already don't understand it and I feel you should have reached tip burnout ten years ago. But the culture hasn't changed it went worse. The dark patterns must be working. Tipping is spreading means more and more people are at the receiving end of it and depend on it, these people aren't going to complain about it.

l-lousy 4y ago

Yep, very true. Some places are even asking for a tip when I just order for pickup which doesn’t make sense, it’s just a voluntary service charge at that point? As a result I and many others are just going out less. This means less income for those in the service industry, so they might need to charge a bigger tip from those who do choose to dine in. Not a great feedback loop

bombcar 4y ago
Part of the "tip for pickup" is that many restaurants ran on "pooled tips" where the tips would support/subsidize not only the waitresses, but also the bus boy, cooks, etc. When they went full-online during covid with only pickup, they wanted to keep those people, and so suggested that you tip even on pickup. I'd much rather just see increased prices where tips are no longer "needed" but I don't know how we'll get there.
- great_psy 4y ago
  Prices are already increased. We had pretty bad inflation for the last year. At some point some of the zombie businesses need to die and make room for the profitable ones that can pay their workers.
mdasen 4y ago
I'm also very unclear on who gets the tip for a pickup order. In my state, it's illegal to share the tips with back-of-house staff (ie. the people cooking the food). Am I just tipping the person who hands me the food? The online system took my order, took my payment, and printed the ticket. The food preparation staff made my food. I walk in, give my name to the person at the counter, and they hand me the bag. That person is the only one who serves customers directly in that system so they're the only one eligible for tips in my state.

giarc 4y ago

At quick stop restaurants, I always feel guilty hitting the $0 tip option and I feel like I might get worse service because of it. I wonder if they should implement something similar to Tim Horton's charity camp set up. They have tap devices at the register that is set to a $2 amount. Just tap your card and donation made. I'd rather they have that for tipping then it built into the POS.

Beldin 4y ago
I'd rather they charge a price for their foods that allows them to pay the folks involved decently. If I'm not willing to pay that amount, no problem, I can just turn around and leave instead of sitting down.
- giarc 4y ago
  Sure, but where I live the minimum wage is $15/hr (and many pay more than that to attract workers).

tristor 4y ago

It's getting out of control in the US. Tips are supposed to be for service workers, not for anyone who you interact with in any way while conducting a basic business transaction. People who are performing a direct personal service for you. In the US now, businesses expect you to tip on take-out orders, at drive through windows, at every form of eatery, there's even tips expected now at some retailers. The roles that are appropriate to tip didn't change just because everyone felt like it was okay to ask for a tip. You tip barbers, doormen, bellhops, shoe shines, wait staff, delivery drivers, and bartenders. That's basically it. If a worker is not rendering you a direct personal service, they should not be tipped and their employer being passive-aggressive about it is hoping enough of their staff get tipped they can start paying the tipped minimum wage instead of paying a normal wage for their job role. What a lot of people don't get is that opposing the expansion of tipping isn't a negative for the workers, it's a negative for the business owners. The business owners /want/ society to expect to tip workers, because they can pay them $2.15/hr instead of $17/hr in a major metro as long as they clear federal minimum wage after tips. Stop the madness, and stop tipping people who are not in direct service roles. What's super fucked is that in SF I am seeing most businesses just add it on the check as a mandatory service charge and require you to argue with them. Like, why the fuck am I paying you a 15% service charge for me to walk to your restaurant and pick up my order off a shelf and walk back to where I'm staying after I ordered online. We both know that money isn't going to the kitchen staff, it's lining the business owner's pocket and is a fraudulent way for them to raise prices by forcing a fee on you that you have to argue about. If I'm ordering on the web and picking up, and not even speaking to anybody in the process, what "service" did I receive?

talideon 4y ago
I'd be even more restrictive than that: everyone should get a proper minimum wage, regardless of the line of work they're in, regardless of whether they're performing a direct personal service for you. Tipping should be for exceptional service. Nobody should need tips to make ends meet.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > everyone should get a proper minimum wage, regardless of the line of work they're in, regardless of whether they're performing a direct personal service for you In America, this is the law. It’s poorly enforced, unfortunately.

aleksiy123 4y ago

Would be nice to get some regulation for this. It's really getting ridiculous.

version_five 4y ago
I think it's ridiculous too, but regulation is completely overkill. The government doesn't need to protect people from something so insignificant. Don't tip where you don't want to, don't go to counter service places that ask you to tip if it bothers you, and complain to the management or owners about the policy. We don't need a nanny state intervening in something like this, we're all adults
- mywittyname 4y ago
  Tipping is already enshrined into law. It's not "nanny state intervention" to revisit laws that are now being usedin a manner that's completely different from the spirit in which they were first written. Consumers feel tricked or pressured into tipping, despite having little to no understanding around who is receiving those tips and why. This makes this a consumer protection situation. If that lack of clarity extends to the workers, then it also becomes a worker protection situation. The government went down this path when it decided to encourage special treatment for tipped workers. So we need to either remove this special treatment, or update the laws to reflect modern reality.
- genocidicbunny 4y ago
  I think there's place for some regulation. Not for getting rid of tipping, but making sure it is well defined. For example, legislating that tips can only be requested after service has been rendered (no more pre-tipping on delivery orders) or requiring that any 'living wage' fees or the like that have now become so common are fully paid out to the employees as tips.

davesque 4y ago

Maybe I'm a cold hearted bastard but I haven't found myself struggling with this. I just simply don't tip if it's not delivery or dine-in. Otherwise, I've tried to adjust my tipping sensibility for inflation when the tip is not percentage based. And I've just essentially stopped using things like Doordash where there's already like $7 or $8 tacked onto the bill even before tip.

genocidicbunny 4y ago
I've come to share this sentiment as well. I used to be a generous tipper -- leaving 20% on a takeout order and the like, but as I've come to find some of the biggest resistance to getting rid of tipping is from the tipped workers themselves. And while I do get it, they can make significantly more than non-tipped minimum wage, I'm pretty tired of being expected to directly pay their wages. My sympathy for their situation does not extend to being punished for having it.
yrdmb 4y ago
> And I've just essentially stopped using things like Doordash where there's already like $7 or $8 tacked onto the bill even before tip. They lure you in with "25% off first 5 orders" or "March Madness special" but offset that with ridiculous service charges. Years ago when delivery services were in their infancy and trying to grow, their discounts were awesome. Now that they are established, most of their discounts aren't discounts at all. Pity.
- rascul 4y ago
  I keep getting Uber Eats emails with offers for $20 food free. So I go to the website, order about $15 of food, Uber still wants to collect $25 from me for all the various fees and charges, but oh, they don't deliver to my area and the offer is only for delivery. Oh well, I guess I won't be spending an additional $10 more than normal to get my food "free" today.
the_snooze 4y ago
There's nothing wrong with tipping nothing. It isn't personal. It's just business. If they want more money, raise prices.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

clircle 4y ago

My family has curtailed eating out to just once or twice and month. Partly because we don't like to tip. On the other hand, I don't see any issue with businesses asking for more money, which can easily be declined.

lykahb 4y ago

Tipping also creates more space to display your bias. A customer can give zero tip for certain demographics and deny their wage. By the way, as a fresh immigrant I nearly never tipped. I'd do this only if the service was exceptional. This changed once I learned that the staff makes less than the minimal wage because of tipping.

genocidicbunny 4y ago
> Tipping also creates more space to display your bias. One of the reasons tipping became a big thing in the US was specifically so people could display their bias without running terribly afoul of the law. Tipping allowed people to discriminate against minority workers, who were thus forced to be pretty much servile to have any hope of being paid decently. > This changed once I learned that the staff makes less than the minimal wage because of tipping. I don't recall if this was originally the case when the tipped vs non-tipped minimum wages were established, but by law if a tipped worker's tips + base wage doesn't add up to the non-tipped minimum wage, the employer still needs to pay the difference. In practice though, that worker is getting fired. As I also said in another comment, some of the most vehement supporters of tipping nowadays are tipped workers, or at least a subset of them. So I wouldn't feel terrible about tipping less.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > allowed wealthier restaurant patrons to discriminate against minority workers Curious for evidence of this. I’ve seen minorities treated quite horribly in non- and low-tipping Germany. And London’s restaurants feature a level of self-effacing service that makes even this Manhattanite blush.
  - genocidicbunny 4y ago
    Treating minorities badly is unfortunately a timeless worldwide phenomenon. If you look at the history of tipping in the US, some states banned the practice early on too, but were eventually forced to unban it, partially because many southern states kept and fought for the practice. If you consider the circumstances that this was right after the US Civil War, and right during the heavy southern pushback against emancipation, it's not a terribly hard line to draw between wanting to keep tipping as a practice, and treating minorities bad. And when in 1938 the federal minimum wage was established, and they made the tipped one significantly lower, it enshrined the ability to use tipping to legally discriminate in law. > And London’s restaurants feature a level of self-effacing service that makes even this Manhattanite blush. I believe tipping originally came to the US from the continent, with the practice being especially promoted by the British wealthy.

dboreham 4y ago

In the UK there's a trend to add "optional" service charges to restaurant bills. France seems to be one place where this hasn't happened yet.

dudul 4y ago
I'm always hesitant about speaking for an entire country, but I'm pretty sure tipping in a restaurant in France would be considered borderline insulting.
- bombcar 4y ago
  I was in Paris recently and all the restaurants that were "tourist-enabled" (e.g, had an English menu) didn't seem at all worried about the tablet credit card machine having a tip option.
- rr888 4y ago
  Doesn't France have a standardized 15% service charge.
  - dudul 4y ago
    Yes it's included in the prices. Technically it's supposed to go to waiters, but I don't think it really happens. They just get a "livable" flat wage. Back in the days it was customary to just leave the change when paying for your meal in cash, but it was rarely the equivalent of more than a dollar or two.
dfxm12 4y ago
There is definitely no such trend in Japan.

pupppet 4y ago

Asking for tips on take-out orders is total BS and everyone's doing it now. Sorry I'm not rewarding you for a product I haven't even tried yet.

genocidicbunny 4y ago
It's usually both amusing and disappointing to visit some of the gig-worker communities (especially the doordash ones) where they complain about people not tipping enough to get their orders picked up and delivered. Those aren't tips anymore, they're bribes.
- rjbwork 4y ago
  They're really more like...gas fees on the Ethereum chain, or spot electricity prices, I guess. It's a dynamically priced transaction fee based on instantaneous supply and demand. If you don't bid enough, you don't get your energy/money transfer/food.
  - genocidicbunny 4y ago
    And that's perfectly fine by me, as long as they stop calling it a tip. Call it a 'delivery bid' and make it clear that if you don't bid enough, your order may be significantly delayed, cold, damaged or improperly handled, if delivered at all. Of course Doordash et al don't want to do that because the optics are pretty frakking bad.
liquidwax 4y ago
In places where you pay upfront at the register and wait for your order, it almost feels like blackmail. Tipping happens at the time of placing the order. Not saying everyone does this but can't be sure that nothing fishy happens if someone tips low/min.
- cholantesh 4y ago
  One dark pattern I saw recently was a Clover/Square POS that set 15% as a minimum, and no clearly visible option to decline.

amiramir 4y ago

Canada seem to have imported the tipping culture and default tipping amounts (a la Square Register) from the US. The explanation for tipping in the US has been the lack of national healthcare and a social safety net. I live in the NYC and grew up in London and Paris. In Paris tipping was culturally seen as optional and generally reserved for instances of great service. London was similar way back when with 50p or a quid being a tip. When I got to the US tipping was a much bigger deal and has only grown over time. The explanation was that service workers don't get paid enough and unlike in the UK, France, and Canada there is no universal healthcare or safety net so we need to subsidize the employers to make the workers whole and safe which seems like a weird concept all around, unless you are an employer.

Beldin 4y ago
> The explanation was that service workers don't get paid enough The fact that this custom is not only not illegal but even outright defended by folks from the US, was always weird to me.
hervature 4y ago
As a Canadian who lives in the US, I actually think this is playing a large role. When I was growing up, 15% was considered "good" and customary. In the US, that's basically the minimum and the expectation is higher (18-25%). Canadians have a reputation of being poor tippers in the US for this precise reason. Coupling the COVID tip creep with the American expectation has been a double whammy for Canadians.
cholantesh 4y ago
I mean, the cost of living in Canada is high despite the presence of a social safety net. Not saying that tipping is justified, but wage stagnation and employment precarity isn't a phenomenon unique to the US.

MomoXenosaga 4y ago

I was in a restaurant and somebody asked me: how much do you want to tip? I just stood there in total silence trying to process the horror. You can come to the Netherlands and never learn the language but there are lines a man cannot cross. Lesson 1 of globalization: only import the good parts.

hirvi74 4y ago

To add on to what others are saying, I have always hated the argument that some business owners counter with by saying something along the lines of, "Without tips, we would have to raise the prices of our service." Especially recently, I have noticed that many (more like all) businesses have raised their prices anyway, and I do not believe it's solely due to inflation and supply side issues. Not one bit; absolute unfettered greed. I think many business owners do not realize the reality of owning a business -- not all of them can and should survive. If you can't afford to pay your employees a living wage, then have fun with your Chapter 7 or 11 Bankruptcy.

JohnFen 4y ago
> "Without tips, we would have to raise the prices of our service." Which is an exceedingly stupid argument, because the effect is exactly the same as if they raised their prices.

IYasha 4y ago

Ahh, the luxury of living in (otherwise hell on earth) tipless country! )

bilsbie 4y ago

As much as I hate tipping, the worst restaurant service I ever had was in a restaurant that eliminated tips. The staff never checked on me and acted like I was annoying them when I asked for anything.

screamingninja 4y ago
> the worst restaurant service I ever had was in a restaurant that eliminated tips That is a self correcting issue IMHO. The management can incentivize excellent service or lose business. Customers continue to vote by spending their $$$ elsewhere. Poor service could be a result of disgruntled workers after that policy change but with the management's involvement, it should normalize over time.

pyrolistical 4y ago

Everybody just wants more money on both sides. Customers want to be able to spend the least amount of money going out. Business want to maximize their income. Tipping (and added taxes/fees) is just mudding the water. It is making it harder for consumers to see what is the real price is for the goods/services. As a consumer I want all businesses to be forced to have explicit upfront pricing so they can all compete over. Some businesses will die but this is better in the long term

bparsons 4y ago

This is the market applying a band-aid to a structural problem of low wages for service workers. If I am at Whistler at a liquor store, I tip the cashier because I know that the cost of living there is the most expensive in the world. The housing situation is horrendous. I wish that the minimum wage was $25/hr and we didn't have to do this, but it isn't so I tip.