4 ms·

This sort of argument seems similar to "but I can manufacture my own gun in my garage machine shop" That's great for you, but it says little about the ultima

This sort of argument seems similar to "but I can manufacture my own gun in my garage machine shop" That's great for you, but it says little about the ultimate efficacy of a policy on a general population level. Japan's gun ban is generally effective, even though you occasionally have somebody who successfully makes their own homemade gun. And regulation requiring computers to spy on their owners could become generally effective, even if a few people like yourself have the technical know-how and inclination to opt yourself out.

irusensei 4y ago
I don't think such controls on software and data are as enforceable as fire arms. And older router that can run OpenWRT is way easier to procure than a 3d printer or a cnc machine.
- slackdog 4y ago
  Why not? Anybody can make a homemade shotgun with standard tools and hardware store parts, but very few people do. Very few people simultaneously have both the technical know-how and the inclination, therefore gun bans are generally effective by simply banning the easiest and laziest way of getting guns (buying them.) Even people with overt criminal intentions rarely make their own guns. I think the same will likely be true for legally-enforced client side scanning. It is already the case that few people simultaneously have both the knowledge and inclination to "jailbreak" their phones. Throw in stiff legal penalties for doing so and even fewer people will do it. A few people still will, but if most people don't then the ban will still be effective even though it's possible to squeeze through the cracks. In both cases, instructions for circumventing the law may be found online by anybody that cares to look. But most people won't.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - irusensei 4y ago
    Like piracy? It's ilegal and fines are often hefty so shouldn't it deter people from pirating movies or downloading roms etc? I don't think it's a good comparison. It's pretty much unenforceable outside of apple cellphones and very hard to detect.
    - slackdog 4y ago
      > Like piracy? It's ilegal and fines are often hefty so shouldn't it deter people from pirating movies or downloading roms etc? Yes, and it mostly works! Bans on piracy work well already, most people don't torrent games or movies. And locked down platforms exist, demonstrating the technical feasibility of even greater control. Software piracy in particular is much more difficult on the sort of computers that manufactures deliberately design to be locked down, like modern video game consoles and iOS devices. It is still possible, but has been made sufficiently difficult to stop the majority of the population from doing it.
      - throwaway8689 4y ago
        Piracy may have been displaced into Netflix password sharing, or diminished and replaced by bona fide streaming subscriptions (why pirate if you can get what you want at a low price). But falling real incomes and Netflix tightening up on 'free' users could see more pirating.
      - irusensei 4y ago
        Plex works on iOS and video game consoles doesn't? You can install VLC or similar software on your iOS device and watch a downloaded mkv. People are often caught when selling or seeding a torrent file, which is easily avoidable by using a VPN or seedbox not by playing a rip of Dune.2020.4k.en.it.h264.mkv on their phone. Piracy has been mitigated through better services at competitive prices offered by the likes of Steam, iTunes, Spotify or how Netflix used to be and not at all by law enforcement.
        slackdog 4y ago
        > Plex works on iOS and video game consoles doesn't? As long as that remains permitted by Apple/Sony and your government, yes. If either of them decide to ban Plex or VLC, it will become effectively impossible for most people with normal levels of motivation and technical know-how. > You can install VLC or similar software on your iOS device and watch a downloaded mkv. Presently, you can. And yet presently, relatively few people do. These sort of bans aren't ever 100% effective; you'll probably always be able to squeeze through the cracks if you try hard enough. That guy in Japan managed to make a homemade shotgun that was good enough to kill the ex-PM, but the simple fact remains that gun control generally works in Japan. And so do anti-piracy measures even today, before the full technical means of authoritarian control have even been brought to bear. Locked bootloaders exist and mostly work. The fact that you can presently buy computers without locked bootloaders doesn't change the fact that the technical means of control have been demonstrated to work. Political policy is all that protects us today.
  - shjake 4y ago
    Software has close to zero cost and very low barrier of entry. Also it’s much harder to enforce, the police can’t really “raid” your computer (yet) the same way they could an illegal gun making workshop.
    - throwaway8689 4y ago
      I agree about the cost, but it is common to seize computers during raids police raids.
      - shjake 4y ago
        True. I guess I just meant that it’s way easier to hide something if you know what you’re doing.
    - slackdog 4y ago
      > the police can’t really “raid” your computer (yet) > yet Key word. The technical means for that sort of thing have also been demonstrated. The only thing holding us back from a highly effective digitally-enabled police state is political policy. Software piracy is presently easy on some platforms, but much more difficult on others. With the right political impetus, those controls could be extended to the presently free platforms. "Just buy an Android" doesn't work when the law requires Google to implement the same sort of controls as iOS. "Just buy a PC" stops working when the government permits or even compels Microsoft, Dell, etc to implement locked bootloaders like a Sony Playstation and only permit applications to run if they've been signed by an organization accountable to the law.

irusensei 4y ago

I don't think such controls on software and data are as enforceable as fire arms. And older router that can run OpenWRT is way easier to procure than a 3d printer or a cnc machine.

slackdog 4y ago
Why not? Anybody can make a homemade shotgun with standard tools and hardware store parts, but very few people do. Very few people simultaneously have both the technical know-how and the inclination, therefore gun bans are generally effective by simply banning the easiest and laziest way of getting guns (buying them.) Even people with overt criminal intentions rarely make their own guns. I think the same will likely be true for legally-enforced client side scanning. It is already the case that few people simultaneously have both the knowledge and inclination to "jailbreak" their phones. Throw in stiff legal penalties for doing so and even fewer people will do it. A few people still will, but if most people don't then the ban will still be effective even though it's possible to squeeze through the cracks. In both cases, instructions for circumventing the law may be found online by anybody that cares to look. But most people won't.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- irusensei 4y ago
  Like piracy? It's ilegal and fines are often hefty so shouldn't it deter people from pirating movies or downloading roms etc? I don't think it's a good comparison. It's pretty much unenforceable outside of apple cellphones and very hard to detect.
  - slackdog 4y ago
    > Like piracy? It's ilegal and fines are often hefty so shouldn't it deter people from pirating movies or downloading roms etc? Yes, and it mostly works! Bans on piracy work well already, most people don't torrent games or movies. And locked down platforms exist, demonstrating the technical feasibility of even greater control. Software piracy in particular is much more difficult on the sort of computers that manufactures deliberately design to be locked down, like modern video game consoles and iOS devices. It is still possible, but has been made sufficiently difficult to stop the majority of the population from doing it.
    - throwaway8689 4y ago
      Piracy may have been displaced into Netflix password sharing, or diminished and replaced by bona fide streaming subscriptions (why pirate if you can get what you want at a low price). But falling real incomes and Netflix tightening up on 'free' users could see more pirating.
    - irusensei 4y ago
      Plex works on iOS and video game consoles doesn't? You can install VLC or similar software on your iOS device and watch a downloaded mkv. People are often caught when selling or seeding a torrent file, which is easily avoidable by using a VPN or seedbox not by playing a rip of Dune.2020.4k.en.it.h264.mkv on their phone. Piracy has been mitigated through better services at competitive prices offered by the likes of Steam, iTunes, Spotify or how Netflix used to be and not at all by law enforcement.
      - slackdog 4y ago
        > Plex works on iOS and video game consoles doesn't? As long as that remains permitted by Apple/Sony and your government, yes. If either of them decide to ban Plex or VLC, it will become effectively impossible for most people with normal levels of motivation and technical know-how. > You can install VLC or similar software on your iOS device and watch a downloaded mkv. Presently, you can. And yet presently, relatively few people do. These sort of bans aren't ever 100% effective; you'll probably always be able to squeeze through the cracks if you try hard enough. That guy in Japan managed to make a homemade shotgun that was good enough to kill the ex-PM, but the simple fact remains that gun control generally works in Japan. And so do anti-piracy measures even today, before the full technical means of authoritarian control have even been brought to bear. Locked bootloaders exist and mostly work. The fact that you can presently buy computers without locked bootloaders doesn't change the fact that the technical means of control have been demonstrated to work. Political policy is all that protects us today.
- shjake 4y ago
  Software has close to zero cost and very low barrier of entry. Also it’s much harder to enforce, the police can’t really “raid” your computer (yet) the same way they could an illegal gun making workshop.
  - throwaway8689 4y ago
    I agree about the cost, but it is common to seize computers during raids police raids.
    - shjake 4y ago
      True. I guess I just meant that it’s way easier to hide something if you know what you’re doing.
  - slackdog 4y ago
    > the police can’t really “raid” your computer (yet) > yet Key word. The technical means for that sort of thing have also been demonstrated. The only thing holding us back from a highly effective digitally-enabled police state is political policy. Software piracy is presently easy on some platforms, but much more difficult on others. With the right political impetus, those controls could be extended to the presently free platforms. "Just buy an Android" doesn't work when the law requires Google to implement the same sort of controls as iOS. "Just buy a PC" stops working when the government permits or even compels Microsoft, Dell, etc to implement locked bootloaders like a Sony Playstation and only permit applications to run if they've been signed by an organization accountable to the law.