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> A common example here on HN would be the excitement regarding working from home. I get it, I love it too. But let's not dismiss that this further tilts things

by tayo42 4y ago

> A common example here on HN would be the excitement regarding working from home. I get it, I love it too. But let's not dismiss that this further tilts things into a flat, isolated, touchless society. You want it, but it's still really bad for you. work from home and working remote lets me live a way richer life then working in the office allowed for. I have time and energy to dive into hobbies, pick up more hobbies and have the flexibility to travel. There is so much more to life then spending it in an office, making money for someone else, then commuting for 2 hours, wasting another hour getting ready to do that commute.

ian-g 4y ago
I think it's that second piece that's important about wfh. You need to take advantage of it to do more things. I could commute to the suburbs, or I could work from home and leave earlier to hang out with friends. Or I can go on a road trip and work part of that time doing things in the evening and weekends, taking long lunches, etc... Working remotely is great if you take advantage of it
mbork_pl 4y ago
I have a fairly small apartment where I live with my wife and two kids (7 & 13). I read/write a lot while commuting by public transport. Work from home is a nightmare for me, even though I have to commute 10+ km to the office. I mean, to each his own – I don't have any problem with you loving working remotely. But please do not forget that people are in various situations. (I'm not claiming you do, just wanted to mention another perspective.)
- RangerScience 4y ago
  > public transport. (Not GP) It's not a "to each his own" - I don't have any problem with you working in an office, in a place where public transit is a functional commute. I'd probably want a return to office if I lived somewhere that had that, but I don't. It's not so much that I'm "choosing" remote, it's that non-remote commutes make office jobs that much worse because of the lack of functional public transit for that commute. And, in other cases, because office locations are shit (office parks). (I live in LA: We do actually have great public transit... kind of. It just goes to limited places, so those places are packed. Otherwise it's buses, and those don't work as a read/write commute - at least in LA, both b/c busses also have to deal with traffic, and the US's social safety net... issues).
- helij 4y ago
  I was just thinking and can't remember anyone being bothered by someone wanting to go to the office and work there. I do know people who are offended by people who want to work from home though and they can be pretty aggressive and annoying (not pointing at you here btw.). The commute I have is aprox. 50 min and I stand on the train and tube the whole way in the morning. No room to read or write. We also have fairly big 3-bed apartment and one of the smaller bedrooms is our home office. It's really amazing and for two adults and a child plenty of space for everyone. Yes, to each his own. If you prefer to go to an office go ahead. Don't expect others to be there though. Also, the money I save from commuting goes straight into paying up our mortgage and doing a lunch or two and dinner at our local town restaurants. Great Italian and Turkish food around. Certainly beats Greggs in the City and even some fancier restaurants and pubs. I find it funny how the push to the office comes with let's support "local businesses" - what they mean by that is actually big chains. Well, now I can actually support local businesses and spend money locally. Earlier I couldn't as, you know, I only came home to sleep. /rant off
  - throwaway1347a 4y ago
    I think the office/home misses the point when it comes to interaction. It’s more about whether you’re working in the same physical location as your colleagues, and while no one is stopping people heading into the office, if no other colleagues are there you’re not working in the same physical location. Personally, I live alone, and when I spend a day without in depth conversations with co located people I feel very down. Obviously I can head out in the evening, but during work hours it’s very hard to both do my job, and have conversations with co located people. This is true whether I’m at home, or in an empty office. Now, rationally, I know it’s not in anyone’s job description to come into the office to look after my personal mental health - and as a manager I push for people being able to work from home where it makes sense, and support those people as best I can. However, I’ve now decided I will likely soon leave my current role and look for a job where I know I will be co located 4-5 days a week, because I know it’s what is best for my mental health. Even if that means a significant career change I’d be happy to do it. Again, I have no issues with people wanting to work from home, and I’m sure it’s had a great positive impact for those people. For me, it’s had a major negative impact, and it’s now something I’ll be sure is a criteria in future roles.
- dakiol 4y ago
  > I mean, to each his own That's the problem. Don't take it personally, but if we are in the same team, I don't care at all if you go to the office to work; I'm happy working from home. But, if you want to work from the office it's because you (probably) want to work with people there... so the company forces the rest to come to the office some days per week. So it's not really "to each his own": working from the office is not a personal choice, it's rather a team/company decision.
- unregistereddev 4y ago
  Yeah ... I have a moderately sized house where I live with my wife. She loves working from home because it frees her to be flexible. She can take meetings without a headset, grab snacks whenever, play music, play with the cats, or - if she's no longer being productive - turn on the TV. For all the reasons my wife enjoys working from home, I enjoy working from the office. I love her dearly, but I also want to work during my work time. There's only so much I can tune out while remaining productive.
  - throwaway2037 4y ago
    I see this pattern a lot in straight couples. The wife has much lower economic productivity. Why? Please don't read this as a slight against your wife! (A person's economic value is completely separate from their value as a human being.) My statement comes with a lot of assumptions. I cannot believe that someone who works like that actually makes decent money. Are they working the absolute minimum and paid enough to feel satisfied?
    - unregistereddev 4y ago
      We work in the same industry. While I do make more money, that is primarily due to being older and having a little more experience. She makes decent money. The lesson here might be that having more fucks to give does not necessarily lead to better performance reviews or more promotions. Or equally likely, my wife is smarter than I am and is able to exceed expectations with far less effort.
diordiderot 4y ago
Your beef isn't with the office it's with capitalism.
UncleOxidant 4y ago
Agreed. WFH allows me more time for gardening and getting out in nature.
slothtrop 4y ago
If working doesn't give you any meaning, your job sucks. People tend to like validation, participating in society, creating value for others, etc. Work is usually the best vector. Dicking around with art for the sake of leisure provides some meaning, but doesn't deliver what a good job does. If it did, it would be a job.
- bluefirebrand 4y ago
  > If working doesn't give you any meaning, your job sucks This is a very typical attitude but it's pretty backwards imo. If your work provides more meaning than everything else in your life, then your life sucks. Id rather have a job that is just a paycheck and find meaning in all of the other stuff.
  - slothtrop 4y ago
    They aren't mutually exclusive, but consider that the best predictor of men's happiness is their job. Not their hobbies, not what they consume, not how many vacation days they have, not how many hours they work; their job.
micromacrofoot 4y ago
It's important to track your work time and actually do something else instead of commute though. I fall into pattern of working longer if I'm not careful.
fleddr 4y ago
Your response is as predictable as HN can possibly be.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  What is wrong with pointing out a possible error in this claim? > excitement regarding working from home. I get it, I love it too. But let's not dismiss that this further tilts things into a flat, isolated, touchless society. You want it, but it's still really bad for you. Not spending 1 hour+ per day commuting allows one to go to city meetings, go to the gym, walk around the neighborhood when the sun is out for those in northern latitudes, etc. If anything, spending so much time commuting to and from work is what tilted things into a flat, isolated, touchless society.
  - 3np 4y ago
    It's not an error just because it does jot hold in individual level for you and many others.
  - oblio 4y ago
    Your error is that as seen by the sky high and increasing obesity rates, for example, most people are not as motivated (due to personality or just environment), and I'm quite sure work from home will cause obesity to spike in 5-10 years (there's a bit of lag to get the numbers). At least the commute was forcing a lot of these people to move around. And before you start with gyms and such, remember that New Year's resolutions prompt a huge amount of people to register at gyms but a crazy number, something like 80-90% drop out by March.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      Commuting is sitting in a car for 90%+ of Americans.
      - oblio 4y ago
        But then you're in an office and you have to move around. Maybe go out to lunch at a cafeteria. I wore a pedometer for a while. While I was working from the office I was averaging about 8000 steps, while during a full day at home sometimes the average was as low as 800 steps.
godelski 4y ago
> work from home and working remote lets me live a way richer life then working in the office allowed for. I have time and energy to dive into hobbies, pick up more hobbies and have the flexibility to travel. Personally I have more time to >> Go out for some more walks, plan more visits with friends, do some wood craft, gardening or whatever else physical. Working from home I don't feel compelled to sit and do all work at a set period of time. Oh, it's nice and sunny at 3pm when I'm getting a natural decline in output? I'll go for a walk. Takes an hour, I feel happier, and I come back way more productive. Want a longer lunch with friends? No biggie. (This combined with the commuting aspect you mention, which is actually a high stress period of time for me. My days have far less anxiety working from home. Including the reduced time pressure) I'd argue that I have far more productive work hours between 9 and 6 because of WFH. I see people making fun of your answer but I think the big difference is how people treat work from home vs work in the office. There's definitely also environmental factors. I'm sure there are others that greatly benefit from a very fixed structure. Probably depends on personality and what you do. I'm a researcher and I'm not sure there's ever really an "off the clock" time for me, so the flexibility is far more enjoyable to me. I'm sure there's people that can disconnect better than me. I'm sure there are even researchers that enjoy the structure. To each their own and I thought that's what we were supposed to learn from this WFH experiment. People are different, who knew? Honestly I'd prefer jobs have work space available but also allow for flexible schedules and not requiring to always be in the office. Hybrid of "x days in the office" isn't the real solution to me. The solution is "let people figure out what's optimal for themselves and make the environment where they can do that thing." (Some days I do work in my office because I need to be in a different space or need to work with someone else. Flexibility is key)
unsui 4y ago
I am in the fortunate position where both my wife and myself work from home. It has been an incredible privilege being able to spend quality time with the person I care for the most without the pressure to optimize what little precious time I have outside of work. e.g., being able to have lunch together, or just taking a quick break to check in on each other's lives. Would so much rather have this than sitting in a cubicle or forcibly socializing with people who are acquaintences at best (maybe the introvert in me speaking). Yes, there are some folks who need the social interaction. There are also those who prefer quality interactions over quantity.
- sizzle 4y ago
  A million times this! I feel like I unlocked so much productivity and energy levels to work out and be healthy whereas before the soul crushing commute and open office plan made me feel on edge when trying to be in a flow state and had me drained at the end of the day. I can’t imagine going back to the office just to talk to work acquaintances that are busy with kids and their own lives.

by tayo42 4y ago

ian-g 4y ago

I think it's that second piece that's important about wfh. You need to take advantage of it to do more things. I could commute to the suburbs, or I could work from home and leave earlier to hang out with friends. Or I can go on a road trip and work part of that time doing things in the evening and weekends, taking long lunches, etc... Working remotely is great if you take advantage of it

mbork_pl 4y ago

I have a fairly small apartment where I live with my wife and two kids (7 & 13). I read/write a lot while commuting by public transport. Work from home is a nightmare for me, even though I have to commute 10+ km to the office. I mean, to each his own – I don't have any problem with you loving working remotely. But please do not forget that people are in various situations. (I'm not claiming you do, just wanted to mention another perspective.)

RangerScience 4y ago
> public transport. (Not GP) It's not a "to each his own" - I don't have any problem with you working in an office, in a place where public transit is a functional commute. I'd probably want a return to office if I lived somewhere that had that, but I don't. It's not so much that I'm "choosing" remote, it's that non-remote commutes make office jobs that much worse because of the lack of functional public transit for that commute. And, in other cases, because office locations are shit (office parks). (I live in LA: We do actually have great public transit... kind of. It just goes to limited places, so those places are packed. Otherwise it's buses, and those don't work as a read/write commute - at least in LA, both b/c busses also have to deal with traffic, and the US's social safety net... issues).
helij 4y ago
I was just thinking and can't remember anyone being bothered by someone wanting to go to the office and work there. I do know people who are offended by people who want to work from home though and they can be pretty aggressive and annoying (not pointing at you here btw.). The commute I have is aprox. 50 min and I stand on the train and tube the whole way in the morning. No room to read or write. We also have fairly big 3-bed apartment and one of the smaller bedrooms is our home office. It's really amazing and for two adults and a child plenty of space for everyone. Yes, to each his own. If you prefer to go to an office go ahead. Don't expect others to be there though. Also, the money I save from commuting goes straight into paying up our mortgage and doing a lunch or two and dinner at our local town restaurants. Great Italian and Turkish food around. Certainly beats Greggs in the City and even some fancier restaurants and pubs. I find it funny how the push to the office comes with let's support "local businesses" - what they mean by that is actually big chains. Well, now I can actually support local businesses and spend money locally. Earlier I couldn't as, you know, I only came home to sleep. /rant off
- throwaway1347a 4y ago
  I think the office/home misses the point when it comes to interaction. It’s more about whether you’re working in the same physical location as your colleagues, and while no one is stopping people heading into the office, if no other colleagues are there you’re not working in the same physical location. Personally, I live alone, and when I spend a day without in depth conversations with co located people I feel very down. Obviously I can head out in the evening, but during work hours it’s very hard to both do my job, and have conversations with co located people. This is true whether I’m at home, or in an empty office. Now, rationally, I know it’s not in anyone’s job description to come into the office to look after my personal mental health - and as a manager I push for people being able to work from home where it makes sense, and support those people as best I can. However, I’ve now decided I will likely soon leave my current role and look for a job where I know I will be co located 4-5 days a week, because I know it’s what is best for my mental health. Even if that means a significant career change I’d be happy to do it. Again, I have no issues with people wanting to work from home, and I’m sure it’s had a great positive impact for those people. For me, it’s had a major negative impact, and it’s now something I’ll be sure is a criteria in future roles.
dakiol 4y ago
> I mean, to each his own That's the problem. Don't take it personally, but if we are in the same team, I don't care at all if you go to the office to work; I'm happy working from home. But, if you want to work from the office it's because you (probably) want to work with people there... so the company forces the rest to come to the office some days per week. So it's not really "to each his own": working from the office is not a personal choice, it's rather a team/company decision.
unregistereddev 4y ago
Yeah ... I have a moderately sized house where I live with my wife. She loves working from home because it frees her to be flexible. She can take meetings without a headset, grab snacks whenever, play music, play with the cats, or - if she's no longer being productive - turn on the TV. For all the reasons my wife enjoys working from home, I enjoy working from the office. I love her dearly, but I also want to work during my work time. There's only so much I can tune out while remaining productive.
- throwaway2037 4y ago
  I see this pattern a lot in straight couples. The wife has much lower economic productivity. Why? Please don't read this as a slight against your wife! (A person's economic value is completely separate from their value as a human being.) My statement comes with a lot of assumptions. I cannot believe that someone who works like that actually makes decent money. Are they working the absolute minimum and paid enough to feel satisfied?
  - unregistereddev 4y ago
    We work in the same industry. While I do make more money, that is primarily due to being older and having a little more experience. She makes decent money. The lesson here might be that having more fucks to give does not necessarily lead to better performance reviews or more promotions. Or equally likely, my wife is smarter than I am and is able to exceed expectations with far less effort.

diordiderot 4y ago

Your beef isn't with the office it's with capitalism.

UncleOxidant 4y ago

Agreed. WFH allows me more time for gardening and getting out in nature.

slothtrop 4y ago

If working doesn't give you any meaning, your job sucks. People tend to like validation, participating in society, creating value for others, etc. Work is usually the best vector. Dicking around with art for the sake of leisure provides some meaning, but doesn't deliver what a good job does. If it did, it would be a job.

bluefirebrand 4y ago
> If working doesn't give you any meaning, your job sucks This is a very typical attitude but it's pretty backwards imo. If your work provides more meaning than everything else in your life, then your life sucks. Id rather have a job that is just a paycheck and find meaning in all of the other stuff.
- slothtrop 4y ago
  They aren't mutually exclusive, but consider that the best predictor of men's happiness is their job. Not their hobbies, not what they consume, not how many vacation days they have, not how many hours they work; their job.

micromacrofoot 4y ago

It's important to track your work time and actually do something else instead of commute though. I fall into pattern of working longer if I'm not careful.

fleddr 4y ago

Your response is as predictable as HN can possibly be.

lotsofpulp 4y ago
What is wrong with pointing out a possible error in this claim? > excitement regarding working from home. I get it, I love it too. But let's not dismiss that this further tilts things into a flat, isolated, touchless society. You want it, but it's still really bad for you. Not spending 1 hour+ per day commuting allows one to go to city meetings, go to the gym, walk around the neighborhood when the sun is out for those in northern latitudes, etc. If anything, spending so much time commuting to and from work is what tilted things into a flat, isolated, touchless society.
- 3np 4y ago
  It's not an error just because it does jot hold in individual level for you and many others.
- oblio 4y ago
  Your error is that as seen by the sky high and increasing obesity rates, for example, most people are not as motivated (due to personality or just environment), and I'm quite sure work from home will cause obesity to spike in 5-10 years (there's a bit of lag to get the numbers). At least the commute was forcing a lot of these people to move around. And before you start with gyms and such, remember that New Year's resolutions prompt a huge amount of people to register at gyms but a crazy number, something like 80-90% drop out by March.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    Commuting is sitting in a car for 90%+ of Americans.
    - oblio 4y ago
      But then you're in an office and you have to move around. Maybe go out to lunch at a cafeteria. I wore a pedometer for a while. While I was working from the office I was averaging about 8000 steps, while during a full day at home sometimes the average was as low as 800 steps.

godelski 4y ago

> work from home and working remote lets me live a way richer life then working in the office allowed for. I have time and energy to dive into hobbies, pick up more hobbies and have the flexibility to travel. Personally I have more time to >> Go out for some more walks, plan more visits with friends, do some wood craft, gardening or whatever else physical. Working from home I don't feel compelled to sit and do all work at a set period of time. Oh, it's nice and sunny at 3pm when I'm getting a natural decline in output? I'll go for a walk. Takes an hour, I feel happier, and I come back way more productive. Want a longer lunch with friends? No biggie. (This combined with the commuting aspect you mention, which is actually a high stress period of time for me. My days have far less anxiety working from home. Including the reduced time pressure) I'd argue that I have far more productive work hours between 9 and 6 because of WFH. I see people making fun of your answer but I think the big difference is how people treat work from home vs work in the office. There's definitely also environmental factors. I'm sure there are others that greatly benefit from a very fixed structure. Probably depends on personality and what you do. I'm a researcher and I'm not sure there's ever really an "off the clock" time for me, so the flexibility is far more enjoyable to me. I'm sure there's people that can disconnect better than me. I'm sure there are even researchers that enjoy the structure. To each their own and I thought that's what we were supposed to learn from this WFH experiment. People are different, who knew? Honestly I'd prefer jobs have work space available but also allow for flexible schedules and not requiring to always be in the office. Hybrid of "x days in the office" isn't the real solution to me. The solution is "let people figure out what's optimal for themselves and make the environment where they can do that thing." (Some days I do work in my office because I need to be in a different space or need to work with someone else. Flexibility is key)

unsui 4y ago

I am in the fortunate position where both my wife and myself work from home. It has been an incredible privilege being able to spend quality time with the person I care for the most without the pressure to optimize what little precious time I have outside of work. e.g., being able to have lunch together, or just taking a quick break to check in on each other's lives. Would so much rather have this than sitting in a cubicle or forcibly socializing with people who are acquaintences at best (maybe the introvert in me speaking). Yes, there are some folks who need the social interaction. There are also those who prefer quality interactions over quantity.

sizzle 4y ago
A million times this! I feel like I unlocked so much productivity and energy levels to work out and be healthy whereas before the soul crushing commute and open office plan made me feel on edge when trying to be in a flow state and had me drained at the end of the day. I can’t imagine going back to the office just to talk to work acquaintances that are busy with kids and their own lives.