7 ms·

Did some minor research, apparently it's for all providers of email, chat and messaging apps. edit: How will it work in practice? Say I make some Open Source m

Did some minor research, apparently it's for all providers of email, chat and messaging apps. edit: How will it work in practice? Say I make some Open Source messaging app. Now I need to add some/the government approved algorithm to detect malicious content and then feed this to some government instance. I guess the government will provide me some key/certificate to ensure that my reports of malicious content are legit. But how will this work if this is public, the signing stuff can be abused to file false reports. I have no clue how this will work in practice. The death of Open Source email, chat and messaging apps?

hadrien01 4y ago
So, a law in France prevents POS (point of sale) software from allowing users to modify or delete transactions and other data. To make sure they don't, software needs to be certified. For three years (2016–2019), open-source software couldn't be certified, but since 2019, they consider any 'major modifications' of the software by any user, including the end-user, a reason to certify that forked software. So you can use and modify open-source software for your POS, with that condition if you want to use it for professional reasons. (though I have no idea how it's enforced)
- emj 4y ago
  Interesting; I think this should be more or less the same all over Europe, but it apparently is not. The Swedish tax agency has never required such a certification but the manufacturer is required to self-certify the POS, in addition to that you need a serial connected certified control unit that stores all the raw receipts (actions) of the POS. Swedish info; if yo have the same for from france I would be interested. It's not easy to translate the PDF:s into something useable sadly. Webpage about this process: https://skatteverket.se/foretag/drivaforetag/kassaregister.4.121b82f011a74172e5880005263.html https://skatteverket.se/foretag/drivaforetag/kassaregister.4... Cryptographic control unit: https://www4.skatteverket.se/download/18.7d4d4f0515244e542f5a9a8/1453733038282/SKVFS%202016_1.pdf https://www4.skatteverket.se/download/18.7d4d4f0515244e542f5... Requirements of the POS: https://www4.skatteverket.se/download/18.566df4d617d171254ec3e41/1637682699152/SKVFS%202021_17.pdf https://www4.skatteverket.se/download/18.566df4d617d171254ec...
patrickaljord 4y ago
> The death of Open Source email, chat and messaging apps? Not if you compile it yourself. Clearly bullish for gentoo and arch users.
- hex4def6 4y ago
  I'm sorry, it appears your OS image isn't signed. Please submit it to the certification authorities along with the inspection fee of $25,000 to ensure that it complies with all necessary regulations. Computers are going to become more like cell phones with locked bootloaders. TPM is already a mandatory feature thanks to Windows 11.
  - supriyo-biswas 4y ago
    Well, conveniently the EU has a proposal for certifying open source projects.
    - throwaway8689 4y ago
      What's the certification fee looking like?
  - chongli 4y ago
    Well then we'll build our own computers at home. Sam Zeloof [1], a high school student at the time, demonstrated the possibility years ago. Are they going to outlaw electronics knowledge? At that point we're beyond a dystopian society, we're post-apocalyptic. [1] https://www.youtube.com/@SamZeloof https://www.youtube.com/@SamZeloof
    - dane-pgp 4y ago
      > Are they going to outlaw electronics knowledge? No, but they might ban "bespoke" devices.[0] Maybe you're smart and brave enough to build and maintain your own illegal device, but good luck trying to persuade other people to do the same so that you can communicate with them securely online. Also, the government might force ISPs to block access to devices that don't pass remote attestation checks. [0] https://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/blog/2023/02/my-comment-uk-government-its-proposal-ban-%E2%80%9Cbespoke%E2%80%9D-%E2%80%9Csophisticated%E2%80%9D-encrypted-phones https://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/blog/2023/02/my-comment-uk-gov...
hedora 4y ago
Richard Stallman sleeps on a couch in Terry Gilliam’s Brazil. The police find out SSH and console emacs exist, as do /tmp and multi-user unix. Hilarity ensues as they knock down the door and arrest him. Years later, we find out the mind crime courts use ~IRC over SSL~ (edit: emacs org mode over sshfs) to organize their docket, and they eventually have to give RMS access to a libre terminal from his jail cell, so he can help them finish his own processing. At this point, the backstory is established and our story begins…
- shjake 4y ago
  It’s probably gonna be closer to how they enforce GDPR. So open source developers whose apps have very little market share will mostly be ignored. Of course it doesn’t really matter the few big companies which control 99%+ of the market will end up complying.. Seems like EU is set on reenacting 1984 for some bizarre reason…
  - dane-pgp 4y ago
    Except the EU is pushing for chat client interoperability[0], and side-loading[1], so everyone should be able to switch to open source apps that don't have this Kafkaesque "your guilt is decided by the AI" feature. [0] https://matrix.org/blog/2022/03/25/interoperability-without-sacrificing-privacy-matrix-and-the-dma/ https://matrix.org/blog/2022/03/25/interoperability-without-... [1] https://goodereader.com/blog/tablet-slates/apple-will-allow-sideloading-of-apps-in-the-eu-in-2024 https://goodereader.com/blog/tablet-slates/apple-will-allow-...

hadrien01 4y ago

So, a law in France prevents POS (point of sale) software from allowing users to modify or delete transactions and other data. To make sure they don't, software needs to be certified. For three years (2016–2019), open-source software couldn't be certified, but since 2019, they consider any 'major modifications' of the software by any user, including the end-user, a reason to certify that forked software. So you can use and modify open-source software for your POS, with that condition if you want to use it for professional reasons. (though I have no idea how it's enforced)

emj 4y ago
Interesting; I think this should be more or less the same all over Europe, but it apparently is not. The Swedish tax agency has never required such a certification but the manufacturer is required to self-certify the POS, in addition to that you need a serial connected certified control unit that stores all the raw receipts (actions) of the POS. Swedish info; if yo have the same for from france I would be interested. It's not easy to translate the PDF:s into something useable sadly. Webpage about this process: https://skatteverket.se/foretag/drivaforetag/kassaregister.4.121b82f011a74172e5880005263.html https://skatteverket.se/foretag/drivaforetag/kassaregister.4... Cryptographic control unit: https://www4.skatteverket.se/download/18.7d4d4f0515244e542f5a9a8/1453733038282/SKVFS%202016_1.pdf https://www4.skatteverket.se/download/18.7d4d4f0515244e542f5... Requirements of the POS: https://www4.skatteverket.se/download/18.566df4d617d171254ec3e41/1637682699152/SKVFS%202021_17.pdf https://www4.skatteverket.se/download/18.566df4d617d171254ec...

patrickaljord 4y ago

> The death of Open Source email, chat and messaging apps? Not if you compile it yourself. Clearly bullish for gentoo and arch users.

hex4def6 4y ago
I'm sorry, it appears your OS image isn't signed. Please submit it to the certification authorities along with the inspection fee of $25,000 to ensure that it complies with all necessary regulations. Computers are going to become more like cell phones with locked bootloaders. TPM is already a mandatory feature thanks to Windows 11.
- supriyo-biswas 4y ago
  Well, conveniently the EU has a proposal for certifying open source projects.
  - throwaway8689 4y ago
    What's the certification fee looking like?
- chongli 4y ago
  Well then we'll build our own computers at home. Sam Zeloof [1], a high school student at the time, demonstrated the possibility years ago. Are they going to outlaw electronics knowledge? At that point we're beyond a dystopian society, we're post-apocalyptic. [1] https://www.youtube.com/@SamZeloof https://www.youtube.com/@SamZeloof
  - dane-pgp 4y ago
    > Are they going to outlaw electronics knowledge? No, but they might ban "bespoke" devices.[0] Maybe you're smart and brave enough to build and maintain your own illegal device, but good luck trying to persuade other people to do the same so that you can communicate with them securely online. Also, the government might force ISPs to block access to devices that don't pass remote attestation checks. [0] https://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/blog/2023/02/my-comment-uk-government-its-proposal-ban-%E2%80%9Cbespoke%E2%80%9D-%E2%80%9Csophisticated%E2%80%9D-encrypted-phones https://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/blog/2023/02/my-comment-uk-gov...

hedora 4y ago

Richard Stallman sleeps on a couch in Terry Gilliam’s Brazil. The police find out SSH and console emacs exist, as do /tmp and multi-user unix. Hilarity ensues as they knock down the door and arrest him. Years later, we find out the mind crime courts use ~IRC over SSL~ (edit: emacs org mode over sshfs) to organize their docket, and they eventually have to give RMS access to a libre terminal from his jail cell, so he can help them finish his own processing. At this point, the backstory is established and our story begins…

shjake 4y ago
It’s probably gonna be closer to how they enforce GDPR. So open source developers whose apps have very little market share will mostly be ignored. Of course it doesn’t really matter the few big companies which control 99%+ of the market will end up complying.. Seems like EU is set on reenacting 1984 for some bizarre reason…
- dane-pgp 4y ago
  Except the EU is pushing for chat client interoperability[0], and side-loading[1], so everyone should be able to switch to open source apps that don't have this Kafkaesque "your guilt is decided by the AI" feature. [0] https://matrix.org/blog/2022/03/25/interoperability-without-sacrificing-privacy-matrix-and-the-dma/ https://matrix.org/blog/2022/03/25/interoperability-without-... [1] https://goodereader.com/blog/tablet-slates/apple-will-allow-sideloading-of-apps-in-the-eu-in-2024 https://goodereader.com/blog/tablet-slates/apple-will-allow-...