5 ms·

How will it work on computers? Will browsers do the client-side scanning? Will Apple and Microsoft implement it in their OS'es? What about Linux, will Linux be

How will it work on computers? Will browsers do the client-side scanning? Will Apple and Microsoft implement it in their OS'es? What about Linux, will Linux be forbidden? (let's not get in the discussion that Linux is the kernel, you know what I mean).

squarefoot 4y ago
Governments have access to what is precluded to normal citizens and hackers. All they need to do is telling the phone/router/CPU/chipsets/NIC manufacturers: "if you want to have business here, from now on you put into your firmware this small blob that will help us to catch pedophiles and terrorists", and see how quick they will comply. Open Source in software would be tolerated because hardware runs at high privileges, and if you tamper with that at production level to insert backdoors, no Open Source operating system and software can prevent them from working.
- ethbr0 4y ago
  The "invisible supply chain attack by intelligence agencies" angle is a plausible vector, but doing so pervasively and repeatedly in a democracy with open records is unlikely. Room 641A was leaked in 3 years. And that was one room with one domestic telecom provider. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A To keep a secret that spans supply chains, across multiple companies, many with substantial international ownership and/or interests? Not gonna happen.
  - salawat 4y ago
    How many common people really understand room 641A though? There's the case to be made that the level of signal propagation and uptake is still "low enough" where even though it is public, it is still effectively secret. From a CAP theoretic point of view, the info is Available, but there is still a hefty Partition in that there is a significant degree of the population that isn't Consistent on this fact.
    - JohnFen 4y ago
      My experience is that a large percentage of ordinary people have heard about 641A, but the overwhelming majority of them think it's just another crazy conspiracy theory.
- irusensei 4y ago
  My APU2C2 from 2016 running OpenBSD can.
  - slackdog 4y ago
    This sort of argument seems similar to "but I can manufacture my own gun in my garage machine shop" That's great for you, but it says little about the ultimate efficacy of a policy on a general population level. Japan's gun ban is generally effective, even though you occasionally have somebody who successfully makes their own homemade gun. And regulation requiring computers to spy on their owners could become generally effective, even if a few people like yourself have the technical know-how and inclination to opt yourself out.
    - irusensei 4y ago
      I don't think such controls on software and data are as enforceable as fire arms. And older router that can run OpenWRT is way easier to procure than a 3d printer or a cnc machine.
      - slackdog 4y ago
        Why not? Anybody can make a homemade shotgun with standard tools and hardware store parts, but very few people do. Very few people simultaneously have both the technical know-how and the inclination, therefore gun bans are generally effective by simply banning the easiest and laziest way of getting guns (buying them.) Even people with overt criminal intentions rarely make their own guns. I think the same will likely be true for legally-enforced client side scanning. It is already the case that few people simultaneously have both the knowledge and inclination to "jailbreak" their phones. Throw in stiff legal penalties for doing so and even fewer people will do it. A few people still will, but if most people don't then the ban will still be effective even though it's possible to squeeze through the cracks. In both cases, instructions for circumventing the law may be found online by anybody that cares to look. But most people won't.
        deleted 4y ago
lifeinthevoid 4y ago
Did some minor research, apparently it's for all providers of email, chat and messaging apps. edit: How will it work in practice? Say I make some Open Source messaging app. Now I need to add some/the government approved algorithm to detect malicious content and then feed this to some government instance. I guess the government will provide me some key/certificate to ensure that my reports of malicious content are legit. But how will this work if this is public, the signing stuff can be abused to file false reports. I have no clue how this will work in practice. The death of Open Source email, chat and messaging apps?
- hadrien01 4y ago
  So, a law in France prevents POS (point of sale) software from allowing users to modify or delete transactions and other data. To make sure they don't, software needs to be certified. For three years (2016–2019), open-source software couldn't be certified, but since 2019, they consider any 'major modifications' of the software by any user, including the end-user, a reason to certify that forked software. So you can use and modify open-source software for your POS, with that condition if you want to use it for professional reasons. (though I have no idea how it's enforced)
  - emj 4y ago
    Interesting; I think this should be more or less the same all over Europe, but it apparently is not. The Swedish tax agency has never required such a certification but the manufacturer is required to self-certify the POS, in addition to that you need a serial connected certified control unit that stores all the raw receipts (actions) of the POS. Swedish info; if yo have the same for from france I would be interested. It's not easy to translate the PDF:s into something useable sadly. Webpage about this process: https://skatteverket.se/foretag/drivaforetag/kassaregister.4.121b82f011a74172e5880005263.html https://skatteverket.se/foretag/drivaforetag/kassaregister.4... Cryptographic control unit: https://www4.skatteverket.se/download/18.7d4d4f0515244e542f5a9a8/1453733038282/SKVFS%202016_1.pdf https://www4.skatteverket.se/download/18.7d4d4f0515244e542f5... Requirements of the POS: https://www4.skatteverket.se/download/18.566df4d617d171254ec3e41/1637682699152/SKVFS%202021_17.pdf https://www4.skatteverket.se/download/18.566df4d617d171254ec...
miohtama 4y ago
Yes Linux is forbidden. More here https://mullvad.net/en/blog/2023/2/1/eu-chat-control-law-will-ban-open-source-operating-systems/ https://mullvad.net/en/blog/2023/2/1/eu-chat-control-law-wil...

squarefoot 4y ago

Governments have access to what is precluded to normal citizens and hackers. All they need to do is telling the phone/router/CPU/chipsets/NIC manufacturers: "if you want to have business here, from now on you put into your firmware this small blob that will help us to catch pedophiles and terrorists", and see how quick they will comply. Open Source in software would be tolerated because hardware runs at high privileges, and if you tamper with that at production level to insert backdoors, no Open Source operating system and software can prevent them from working.

ethbr0 4y ago
The "invisible supply chain attack by intelligence agencies" angle is a plausible vector, but doing so pervasively and repeatedly in a democracy with open records is unlikely. Room 641A was leaked in 3 years. And that was one room with one domestic telecom provider. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A To keep a secret that spans supply chains, across multiple companies, many with substantial international ownership and/or interests? Not gonna happen.
- salawat 4y ago
  How many common people really understand room 641A though? There's the case to be made that the level of signal propagation and uptake is still "low enough" where even though it is public, it is still effectively secret. From a CAP theoretic point of view, the info is Available, but there is still a hefty Partition in that there is a significant degree of the population that isn't Consistent on this fact.
  - JohnFen 4y ago
    My experience is that a large percentage of ordinary people have heard about 641A, but the overwhelming majority of them think it's just another crazy conspiracy theory.
irusensei 4y ago
My APU2C2 from 2016 running OpenBSD can.
- slackdog 4y ago
  This sort of argument seems similar to "but I can manufacture my own gun in my garage machine shop" That's great for you, but it says little about the ultimate efficacy of a policy on a general population level. Japan's gun ban is generally effective, even though you occasionally have somebody who successfully makes their own homemade gun. And regulation requiring computers to spy on their owners could become generally effective, even if a few people like yourself have the technical know-how and inclination to opt yourself out.
  - irusensei 4y ago
    I don't think such controls on software and data are as enforceable as fire arms. And older router that can run OpenWRT is way easier to procure than a 3d printer or a cnc machine.
    - slackdog 4y ago
      Why not? Anybody can make a homemade shotgun with standard tools and hardware store parts, but very few people do. Very few people simultaneously have both the technical know-how and the inclination, therefore gun bans are generally effective by simply banning the easiest and laziest way of getting guns (buying them.) Even people with overt criminal intentions rarely make their own guns. I think the same will likely be true for legally-enforced client side scanning. It is already the case that few people simultaneously have both the knowledge and inclination to "jailbreak" their phones. Throw in stiff legal penalties for doing so and even fewer people will do it. A few people still will, but if most people don't then the ban will still be effective even though it's possible to squeeze through the cracks. In both cases, instructions for circumventing the law may be found online by anybody that cares to look. But most people won't.
      - deleted 4y ago

lifeinthevoid 4y ago

Did some minor research, apparently it's for all providers of email, chat and messaging apps. edit: How will it work in practice? Say I make some Open Source messaging app. Now I need to add some/the government approved algorithm to detect malicious content and then feed this to some government instance. I guess the government will provide me some key/certificate to ensure that my reports of malicious content are legit. But how will this work if this is public, the signing stuff can be abused to file false reports. I have no clue how this will work in practice. The death of Open Source email, chat and messaging apps?

hadrien01 4y ago
So, a law in France prevents POS (point of sale) software from allowing users to modify or delete transactions and other data. To make sure they don't, software needs to be certified. For three years (2016–2019), open-source software couldn't be certified, but since 2019, they consider any 'major modifications' of the software by any user, including the end-user, a reason to certify that forked software. So you can use and modify open-source software for your POS, with that condition if you want to use it for professional reasons. (though I have no idea how it's enforced)
- emj 4y ago
  Interesting; I think this should be more or less the same all over Europe, but it apparently is not. The Swedish tax agency has never required such a certification but the manufacturer is required to self-certify the POS, in addition to that you need a serial connected certified control unit that stores all the raw receipts (actions) of the POS. Swedish info; if yo have the same for from france I would be interested. It's not easy to translate the PDF:s into something useable sadly. Webpage about this process: https://skatteverket.se/foretag/drivaforetag/kassaregister.4.121b82f011a74172e5880005263.html https://skatteverket.se/foretag/drivaforetag/kassaregister.4... Cryptographic control unit: https://www4.skatteverket.se/download/18.7d4d4f0515244e542f5a9a8/1453733038282/SKVFS%202016_1.pdf https://www4.skatteverket.se/download/18.7d4d4f0515244e542f5... Requirements of the POS: https://www4.skatteverket.se/download/18.566df4d617d171254ec3e41/1637682699152/SKVFS%202021_17.pdf https://www4.skatteverket.se/download/18.566df4d617d171254ec...

miohtama 4y ago

Yes Linux is forbidden. More here https://mullvad.net/en/blog/2023/2/1/eu-chat-control-law-will-ban-open-source-operating-systems/ https://mullvad.net/en/blog/2023/2/1/eu-chat-control-law-wil...