4 ms·

I think this part is the most interesting to me, "Redwood says that the main cost driver in the whole process comes down to logistics, particularly now while th

I think this part is the most interesting to me, "Redwood says that the main cost driver in the whole process comes down to logistics, particularly now while there are so few end-of-life EVs waiting to have their battery packs recycled. Redwood says that "in time, as end-of-life pack volumes increase, the logistics cost will decrease so that batteries will become assets that will help make EVs more sustainable and affordable in the long run" I wonder if we'll see a push for smaller recycling facilities (and the tech that enables them) that are pretty localized to try to minimize transportation costs in the future rather than these massive recycling plants.

secabeen 4y ago
If we can get the facilities small enough, they can be co-located with the static storage Grid battery facilities that are hopefully the first re-use of these EV batteries.
- ramesh31 4y ago
  >If we can get the facilities small enough, they can be co-located with the static storage Grid battery facilities that are hopefully the first re-use of these EV batteries. End of life cells will never be directly reused in any form of safety critical application like that. It's simply too dangerous to deal with the voltage and discharge irregularities that come after so many cycles. They will have to be remanufactured from raw materials.
  - flir 4y ago
    Isn't there a large gap between "no longer cost-effective for mobile applications" and "end of life"?
    - ramesh31 4y ago
      >Isn't there a large gap between "no longer cost-effective for mobile applications" and "end of life"? Not for lithium batteries. They have a significant change in voltage (internal resistance) and charge/discharge curve that is unique to each individual cell, based on the specifics of it's lifetime usage. That makes any form of safety critical application impossible. You cannot build a pack around cells with unknown or variable properties. Sure they could be used for hobby projects or DIY stuff, but that's about it.
      - asah 4y ago
        there's no way to sample the behavior then build an algorithm around it?
      - secabeen 4y ago
        B2U storage solutions is doing this today: https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/02/the-big-reuse-25-mwh-of-ex-car-batteries-go-on-the-grid-in-california/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/02/the-big-reuse-25-mwh... 25MWh is pilot-project size, but they are working through the difficulties and building the tooling to enable re-use.
Retric 4y ago
This was operating at a tiny scale. My guess is we’ll have 10 or so around the country each dealing with 100x as many batteries.
recycledmatt 4y ago
The trick will be doing the front end of the process more local to material (size reduction and separation) and then doing refining at larger plants. They will shred the batteries, pull out plastics and metals, and concentrate the black mass. This is the good stuff, and you will reduce the mass and dimensions considerably.

secabeen 4y ago

If we can get the facilities small enough, they can be co-located with the static storage Grid battery facilities that are hopefully the first re-use of these EV batteries.

ramesh31 4y ago
>If we can get the facilities small enough, they can be co-located with the static storage Grid battery facilities that are hopefully the first re-use of these EV batteries. End of life cells will never be directly reused in any form of safety critical application like that. It's simply too dangerous to deal with the voltage and discharge irregularities that come after so many cycles. They will have to be remanufactured from raw materials.
- flir 4y ago
  Isn't there a large gap between "no longer cost-effective for mobile applications" and "end of life"?
  - ramesh31 4y ago
    >Isn't there a large gap between "no longer cost-effective for mobile applications" and "end of life"? Not for lithium batteries. They have a significant change in voltage (internal resistance) and charge/discharge curve that is unique to each individual cell, based on the specifics of it's lifetime usage. That makes any form of safety critical application impossible. You cannot build a pack around cells with unknown or variable properties. Sure they could be used for hobby projects or DIY stuff, but that's about it.
    - asah 4y ago
      there's no way to sample the behavior then build an algorithm around it?
    - secabeen 4y ago
      B2U storage solutions is doing this today: https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/02/the-big-reuse-25-mwh-of-ex-car-batteries-go-on-the-grid-in-california/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/02/the-big-reuse-25-mwh... 25MWh is pilot-project size, but they are working through the difficulties and building the tooling to enable re-use.

Retric 4y ago

This was operating at a tiny scale. My guess is we’ll have 10 or so around the country each dealing with 100x as many batteries.

recycledmatt 4y ago

The trick will be doing the front end of the process more local to material (size reduction and separation) and then doing refining at larger plants. They will shred the batteries, pull out plastics and metals, and concentrate the black mass. This is the good stuff, and you will reduce the mass and dimensions considerably.