5 ms·

Do you think the world has changed much in the 20 years since then?

by yucky 4y ago

mopsi 4y ago
No. The security architecture of Europe remained the same until Russia started the full-scale invasion of Ukraine. No new signifcant NATO members, no significant troop or weapon deployments, no policy changes. Cold War stockpiles were dismantled to cut costs and NATO was so stagnant that French president Macron even called it braindead.
- yucky 4y ago
  Well that's the problem, you're wrong to think nothing has changed in 20 years. The world is a very different place. So your assumption is incorrect and that helps explain your position.
  - mopsi 4y ago
    When you find yourself in a position where you have no arguments left other than calling names, you might want to consider that you are wrong.
    - yucky 4y ago
      Alright, in the interests of educating I would point out that the US financed and fomented a coup in Ukraine in 2014 to install a pro-US government, which then lead to the Constitution of Ukraine being rewritten so that NATO membership was back on the board. That's a pretty big fucking change. Imagine Mexico or Canada suddenly having a pro-Chinese government installed and the CCCP forming a military alliance with them. You think the US might see that as a threat? Oh but this is different because the US can be trusted not to interfere abroad lol.. Meanwhile, the people in Crimea and the Donbass region being heavily Russian did not want any part of that CIA-backed Western interventionism that we've used to destroy vast parts of the world. Crimeans then voted to be annexed to Russia while Donetsk and Luhansk tried to break away as independent of Ukraine. The people in these regions DO NOT want to be a US puppet and that shouldn't be hard for us to understand considering our track record. Not that Russia's track record is much better, but at least they associate themselves with Russia. Better the devil you know as they say. So then the US-backed government in Kiev who has been at war with their own citizens in Donbass and killing them for 8 years decided to cut off the water to Crimea and run their reservoirs dry, leading up to the invasion last year. Remember this next time you hear our fucking talking heads on CNN & FOX News parrot the same "totally unprovoked invasion" talking point.
      - mopsi 4y ago
        Which countries in the world do not recognize the current government of Ukraine and all preceding governments since 2014 as the legitimate governments of Ukraine? Which countries recognize the independence of Luhansk and Donetsk? If both answers are "Russia, Syria and North Korea", then I'd re-evaluate my views if I were you. The unprecedented international isolation of Russia and the total lack of support for its narratives speaks for itself.[1][2] Even Taliban voted against Russia, and I don't think anyone could argue that they have much sympathy towards "CIA-backed Western interventionism". [1] https://gdb.voanews.com/01bd0000-0aff-0242-c65b-08d9fd1b1991_w1597_n_r1_st_s.png https://gdb.voanews.com/01bd0000-0aff-0242-c65b-08d9fd1b1991... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_ES-11/1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembl...
        yucky 4y ago
        > Which countries recognize the independence of Luhansk and Donetsk? Which countries recognize Kosovo, and now tell me how that's different? Hint: because we said so. And that's it. Also, I love how you claimed nothing has changed in the last 20 years and then didn't refute a single thing I said showing how wrong you are, because you can't. We were behind a coup on their border and we pretend to be surprised that the Russkis didn't like it? lol k
        mopsi 4y ago
        There is nothing to refute. Kosovo is recognized by 101 UN members (out of 193). The narrative you described is a fiction that nobody in the world shares, not even Belarus is fully behind it (doesn't recognize LNR and DNR).
        yucky 4y ago
        > There is nothing to refute. Well no, it's a fact that we were behind the coup. The question is why wouldn't you think it's obvious that Russia would have a problem with that? It's also a fact that Kiev cutoff the water supply to Crimea. The question is, why wouldn't you think it's obvious that Russia would have a problem with that? So knowing this, how can you say the response from Russia was "totally unprovoked" when we did everything we could to provoke it? Also, the only difference between Kosovo being recognized by more countries is because the US wants it that way, and we get our way in the UN with most countries. But Kosovo doesn't deserve independence any more than the people of the Donbas, do they?
    - jessaustin 4y ago
      Parent comment doesn't actually include any name-calling.

Do you think the world has changed much in the 20 years since then?

by yucky 4y ago

Do you think the world has changed much in the 20 years since then?

No. The security architecture of Europe remained the same until Russia started the full-scale invasion of Ukraine. No new signifcant NATO members, no significant troop or weapon deployments, no policy changes. Cold War stockpiles were dismantled to cut costs and NATO was so stagnant that French president Macron even called it braindead.

yucky 4y ago
Well that's the problem, you're wrong to think nothing has changed in 20 years. The world is a very different place. So your assumption is incorrect and that helps explain your position.
- mopsi 4y ago
  When you find yourself in a position where you have no arguments left other than calling names, you might want to consider that you are wrong.
  - yucky 4y ago
    Alright, in the interests of educating I would point out that the US financed and fomented a coup in Ukraine in 2014 to install a pro-US government, which then lead to the Constitution of Ukraine being rewritten so that NATO membership was back on the board. That's a pretty big fucking change. Imagine Mexico or Canada suddenly having a pro-Chinese government installed and the CCCP forming a military alliance with them. You think the US might see that as a threat? Oh but this is different because the US can be trusted not to interfere abroad lol.. Meanwhile, the people in Crimea and the Donbass region being heavily Russian did not want any part of that CIA-backed Western interventionism that we've used to destroy vast parts of the world. Crimeans then voted to be annexed to Russia while Donetsk and Luhansk tried to break away as independent of Ukraine. The people in these regions DO NOT want to be a US puppet and that shouldn't be hard for us to understand considering our track record. Not that Russia's track record is much better, but at least they associate themselves with Russia. Better the devil you know as they say. So then the US-backed government in Kiev who has been at war with their own citizens in Donbass and killing them for 8 years decided to cut off the water to Crimea and run their reservoirs dry, leading up to the invasion last year. Remember this next time you hear our fucking talking heads on CNN & FOX News parrot the same "totally unprovoked invasion" talking point.
    - mopsi 4y ago
      Which countries in the world do not recognize the current government of Ukraine and all preceding governments since 2014 as the legitimate governments of Ukraine? Which countries recognize the independence of Luhansk and Donetsk? If both answers are "Russia, Syria and North Korea", then I'd re-evaluate my views if I were you. The unprecedented international isolation of Russia and the total lack of support for its narratives speaks for itself.[1][2] Even Taliban voted against Russia, and I don't think anyone could argue that they have much sympathy towards "CIA-backed Western interventionism". [1] https://gdb.voanews.com/01bd0000-0aff-0242-c65b-08d9fd1b1991_w1597_n_r1_st_s.png https://gdb.voanews.com/01bd0000-0aff-0242-c65b-08d9fd1b1991... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_ES-11/1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembl...
      - yucky 4y ago
        > Which countries recognize the independence of Luhansk and Donetsk? Which countries recognize Kosovo, and now tell me how that's different? Hint: because we said so. And that's it. Also, I love how you claimed nothing has changed in the last 20 years and then didn't refute a single thing I said showing how wrong you are, because you can't. We were behind a coup on their border and we pretend to be surprised that the Russkis didn't like it? lol k
        mopsi 4y ago
        There is nothing to refute. Kosovo is recognized by 101 UN members (out of 193). The narrative you described is a fiction that nobody in the world shares, not even Belarus is fully behind it (doesn't recognize LNR and DNR).
        yucky 4y ago
        > There is nothing to refute. Well no, it's a fact that we were behind the coup. The question is why wouldn't you think it's obvious that Russia would have a problem with that? It's also a fact that Kiev cutoff the water supply to Crimea. The question is, why wouldn't you think it's obvious that Russia would have a problem with that? So knowing this, how can you say the response from Russia was "totally unprovoked" when we did everything we could to provoke it? Also, the only difference between Kosovo being recognized by more countries is because the US wants it that way, and we get our way in the UN with most countries. But Kosovo doesn't deserve independence any more than the people of the Donbas, do they?
  - jessaustin 4y ago
    Parent comment doesn't actually include any name-calling.