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> [..] you don't get to decide what "social good" is Well, technically I have a say, I elect my leaders and can write to them with my opinion. Often it is the

by dijit 4y ago

> [..] you don't get to decide what "social good" is Well, technically I have a say, I elect my leaders and can write to them with my opinion. Often it is the case that salesmen and charletons get into those positions but the basic premise of those positions is that they're intended to act in the social good. What you propose is that somehow tech companies will act in the social good by themselves, which I find particularly dubious. All capitalist companies (and by that I mean, any company that is enjoying success in a capitalist society) have an often unstated goal of monopolising their market. It is a natural outcome of competition that eventually there is a victor. The whole premise of capitalism is that competition is good, but eventually the strongest will win and you have a monopolistic leader. The only antidote to this is regulations. Making the argument that regulation hurts smaller companies is also something uniquely American. This regulation (and many other tech regulations) are really aimed at people abusing their position today, not some theoretical startup that somehow captures 60% of a market overnight. FWIW, I actually really like iMessage and agree with the decision Apple made not to open it, but I can't abide talk like this because a lot of people seem to think that regulation is somehow anti-capitalist, when in reality regulation is the only thing that could keep the capitalist machine running once there is a monopoly position or a sufficient moat around a service.

mattrighetti 4y ago
> The only antidote to this is regulations. Well, I respectfully disagree, I'm a firm believer that regulations disproportionately hurt smaller businesses in the long run because those giants that have the monopoly move way faster than governments and they usually have thousands of smart lawyers ready to find holes and exploit/get around regulations made, usually, by people that does not understand the subject enough. Want to take a guess and see who does not have thousands of smart lawyers? Just FYI: We have the Apple's example with USB-C ready to showcase this exact thing.
- dijit 4y ago
  Yes, if you intend on doing something unethical then it's certainly easier as a big company. I have so far had good experiences with the legal system and regulations by choosing industries that are not unethical. Nobody is chasing people who are not in violation of the cardinal rule zero: "Do not act in a way that requires [me] to make a new rule"
- saiya-jin 4y ago
  > Well, I respectfully disagree, I'm a firm believer that regulations disproportionately hurt Yeah you made the point very clear already in all your other posts, no need to repeat it everywhere. Other point errors in your arguments like this being for 75b corps completely nullifying your core arguments, lets just say most of the forum including me, EU and indeed world doesn't share your view at all. In fact, some healthy dose of regulations makes society actual modern society, less people dying and suffering because money-first. Speed of progress at any costs, believe it or not, is not the ultimate measure of how 'good', moral or developed society is, despite very very few getting richer quicker that way.
  - mattrighetti 4y ago
    I did not make the case that ALL regulations must be erased to a zero, at all. I do believe that there must be a minimum of regulations that actually make everyone prosper and go along with each other. Unfortunately, regulating messaging so that anyone can have just a single app on their phone for that specific task is beyond unnecessary, but that's just my useless opinion I guess.
    - User23 4y ago
      Regulation is also used as a euphemism for unelected bureaucrats creating policy with the force of law without real democratic input. Unless you consider the regulator retiring from government to take a seat on the board of a company he or she used to regulate or give $100k paid speeches to same a form of democracy I suppose. I don't know if that's what it means in the EU, but operationally it's observably what it means in the USA. I will say from a distance it looks like the EU's unelected bureaucrats have even more power than the American ones do.
      - mrbadger 4y ago
        Your use of the term "unelected bureaucrats" as a delegitimizing pejorative is risible. Do yourself a favour and read Michael Lewis's The Fifth Risk. The EU's civil servants are, by and large, an exceptionally talented bunch of people, most of whom are multilingual in addition to being experts in the fields they were hired for. As for their having power, it's subject to democratic constraint. Maybe you should inform yourself about the process by which EU regulations are made? (No, it isn't perfect; you could start with the Trilogue Process). We'll regulate as we see fit in the EU. Businesses that don't like it are welcome and free to go do business elsewhere.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  > Well, I respectfully disagree, I'm a firm believer You have proposed no mehcanism to keep monopolies in check. You are a firm beliver in what? > giants that have the monopoly move way faster than governments So governments should be even more agressive and disproportionate to be effevtive? That is the inevitable conclusion of your argument.
  - mattrighetti 4y ago
    The conclusion of my argument is that regulations disincentive competition and that’s why you end up with monopolies, so keep regulations at minimum.
    - lumb63 4y ago
      Do you have any examples? Net neutrality comes to mind, but that feels a quite extreme example due to complete regulatory capture of the FCC by big telecoms.
    - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
      > regulations disincentive competition and that’s why you end up with monopolies, Seriously? There was no regulation on search, so how did google become a monopoly?
- ribosometronome 4y ago
  Regulations can disproportionately affect small businesses and still be worthwhile by virtue of preventing the thing they're regulating. For example, might be harder to start a train company with rigid safety standards but not spilling toxic chemicals over small towns is ideal. I think USB-C's relatively flimsily implemented open standard is kind of evidence of why Apple is hesitant to things like RCS. Good luck charging a Nintendo Switch or your laptop with just a random usb-c cable you found laying around that came with who knows what. Hope you have an entire day day.
  - krzyk 4y ago
    Nintendo Switch AFAIR is not USB-C standard comply, they just use the same connector.
    - jaywalk 4y ago
      You just proved their point.
RHSeeger 4y ago
> All capitalist companies (and by that I mean, any company that is enjoying success in a capitalist society) have an often unstated goal of monopolising their market. That's ridiculous. There's plenty of companies that want to do what they do well and make a good profit, but have no interest in being the only player in their market.
- dumpsterlid 4y ago
  [dead]

by dijit 4y ago

mattrighetti 4y ago

> The only antidote to this is regulations. Well, I respectfully disagree, I'm a firm believer that regulations disproportionately hurt smaller businesses in the long run because those giants that have the monopoly move way faster than governments and they usually have thousands of smart lawyers ready to find holes and exploit/get around regulations made, usually, by people that does not understand the subject enough. Want to take a guess and see who does not have thousands of smart lawyers? Just FYI: We have the Apple's example with USB-C ready to showcase this exact thing.

dijit 4y ago
Yes, if you intend on doing something unethical then it's certainly easier as a big company. I have so far had good experiences with the legal system and regulations by choosing industries that are not unethical. Nobody is chasing people who are not in violation of the cardinal rule zero: "Do not act in a way that requires [me] to make a new rule"
saiya-jin 4y ago
> Well, I respectfully disagree, I'm a firm believer that regulations disproportionately hurt Yeah you made the point very clear already in all your other posts, no need to repeat it everywhere. Other point errors in your arguments like this being for 75b corps completely nullifying your core arguments, lets just say most of the forum including me, EU and indeed world doesn't share your view at all. In fact, some healthy dose of regulations makes society actual modern society, less people dying and suffering because money-first. Speed of progress at any costs, believe it or not, is not the ultimate measure of how 'good', moral or developed society is, despite very very few getting richer quicker that way.
- mattrighetti 4y ago
  I did not make the case that ALL regulations must be erased to a zero, at all. I do believe that there must be a minimum of regulations that actually make everyone prosper and go along with each other. Unfortunately, regulating messaging so that anyone can have just a single app on their phone for that specific task is beyond unnecessary, but that's just my useless opinion I guess.
  - User23 4y ago
    Regulation is also used as a euphemism for unelected bureaucrats creating policy with the force of law without real democratic input. Unless you consider the regulator retiring from government to take a seat on the board of a company he or she used to regulate or give $100k paid speeches to same a form of democracy I suppose. I don't know if that's what it means in the EU, but operationally it's observably what it means in the USA. I will say from a distance it looks like the EU's unelected bureaucrats have even more power than the American ones do.
    - mrbadger 4y ago
      Your use of the term "unelected bureaucrats" as a delegitimizing pejorative is risible. Do yourself a favour and read Michael Lewis's The Fifth Risk. The EU's civil servants are, by and large, an exceptionally talented bunch of people, most of whom are multilingual in addition to being experts in the fields they were hired for. As for their having power, it's subject to democratic constraint. Maybe you should inform yourself about the process by which EU regulations are made? (No, it isn't perfect; you could start with the Trilogue Process). We'll regulate as we see fit in the EU. Businesses that don't like it are welcome and free to go do business elsewhere.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
ClumsyPilot 4y ago
> Well, I respectfully disagree, I'm a firm believer You have proposed no mehcanism to keep monopolies in check. You are a firm beliver in what? > giants that have the monopoly move way faster than governments So governments should be even more agressive and disproportionate to be effevtive? That is the inevitable conclusion of your argument.
- mattrighetti 4y ago
  The conclusion of my argument is that regulations disincentive competition and that’s why you end up with monopolies, so keep regulations at minimum.
  - lumb63 4y ago
    Do you have any examples? Net neutrality comes to mind, but that feels a quite extreme example due to complete regulatory capture of the FCC by big telecoms.
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    > regulations disincentive competition and that’s why you end up with monopolies, Seriously? There was no regulation on search, so how did google become a monopoly?
ribosometronome 4y ago
Regulations can disproportionately affect small businesses and still be worthwhile by virtue of preventing the thing they're regulating. For example, might be harder to start a train company with rigid safety standards but not spilling toxic chemicals over small towns is ideal. I think USB-C's relatively flimsily implemented open standard is kind of evidence of why Apple is hesitant to things like RCS. Good luck charging a Nintendo Switch or your laptop with just a random usb-c cable you found laying around that came with who knows what. Hope you have an entire day day.
- krzyk 4y ago
  Nintendo Switch AFAIR is not USB-C standard comply, they just use the same connector.
  - jaywalk 4y ago
    You just proved their point.

RHSeeger 4y ago

> All capitalist companies (and by that I mean, any company that is enjoying success in a capitalist society) have an often unstated goal of monopolising their market. That's ridiculous. There's plenty of companies that want to do what they do well and make a good profit, but have no interest in being the only player in their market.

dumpsterlid 4y ago
[dead]