6 ms·

Well, Hollywood also has a reputation for simply stealing a script if they like it.

by danssig 15y ago

FreakLegion 15y ago
It's true that this is a common belief among outsiders, but it's not true that it's actually...true.
- onemoreact 15y ago
  Do you have a better expiation for how often multiple studio's put out near identical movies at the same time?
  - FreakLegion 15y ago
    By near identical do you mean, say, Armageddon and Deep Impact? Because there's a world of difference between two movies having the same high concept and actually being near identical. Parallel development of premises is bound to happen, particularly with ones as obvious as catastrophic events and casual sex. It's not even that there are ethical reasons people in Hollywood don't steal scripts. The reasons are practical: if your script is good, it's going to cost me a lot less to pay you for it than it would cost to pay some other more established writer's quote to develop a new script from the same premise.
    - onemoreact 15y ago
      That's a reasonable first approximation. But let's say two studio's both like the script and only one wins the bidding war. What stops the other studio from farming out the 'high concept' to someone else to write an also ran. As far as I can see nothing, so the value of a script is basically limited by what it costs someone else to create the same basic concept. Toss in the fact that scripts tend to mutate after production anyway and the 'we can always steal it' must be at the back of all negotiations. Which is oddly similar to the buy vs. pirate internal debate I have seen several people go though on hard to find content. EX: Underworld did not use any of white wolf's IP. There was a negotiation, but in the end the studio 'went in another direction' that just happened to look the same as if they had used their IP.
      - FreakLegion 15y ago
        I'm glad you brought up White Wolf v. Sony. I think Penny Arcade's response at the time summed it up pretty well: Comic: http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/09/08 http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/09/08 Post: http://penny-arcade.com/2003/09/08/ http://penny-arcade.com/2003/09/08/ However, despite following the case closely at the time, I've never heard about any negotiations between White Wolf and Sony at any stage of the film's development. On the contrary, emails from within White Wolf indicate they were completely unaware of the film until the first trailer was released. Do you have a source for your claim that there were negotiations? To answer your question: nothing stops a studio from piggybacking on someone else's concept, and nothing should. The Asylum's entire business model is based on it (though they also engage in the somewhat unethical practice of copying names, when they can). White Wolf has no claim to the basic ideas underpinning the World of Darkness. There's nothing unique or innovative there. The same thing applies to The Vampire Diaries (books and TV show), Twilight (books and film), True Blood (books and TV show), and so on, of course.
      - jonnathanson 15y ago
        "the 'we can always steal it' must be at the back of all negotiations." With all due respect, this is a big and mostly incorrect leap. If intellectual theft happens in Hollywood, it's typically an exception and not, as you're implying, a general rule. It certainly isn't something studio execs keep in the back of their minds as part of the development process. That's outlandish. Most studios are extremely frightened of litigation over this very topic. So much so, that when I worked at a TV studio buying scripts, I was not even allowed to open any unsolicited material sent my way. If someone sent me a package, and I didn't recognize the return address, I sent it off to legal, to be returned unopened. About 99% of the scripts and ideas I was pitched came about in meetings with agencies and/or producers, who were also bringing the same material to all of my competitors. The behaviors you're ascribing to studios seem to be occurring at the producer level. There's a high variance of ethical and professional conduct among production companies and producers, in as much as they're not public companies like the big studios and networks are. They don't have a set rulebook. Most of the more established producers are unlikely to steal material, because it's a terrible long-term business strategy (a producer's reputation is his meal ticket). That said, are there some shady folks on the fringes of the business? Yes. Anyone who says otherwise is being willfully naive. But the idea that people at studios actually calculate theft into their buying or development strategies is patently absurd. "What stops the other studio from farming out the 'high concept' to someone else to write an also ran." Three things stopped me from doing that, and stopped my peers from doing that: 1) Personal and professional integrity. 2) Relationships and reputation. (Hollywood is an extremely relationship-driven business. As a development executive, I was worth approximately nothing; what made me relevant to my employers was my network of writers, agents, and producers I could bring to bear for projects. Burning any of these people would have been career suicide). 3) Fear of litigation. In that order.
  - zacharycohn 15y ago
    Look at the Startup World. There are twelve different startups doing the more or less exact same thing. None of them "stole" the idea from anyone else.
- danssig 15y ago
  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13050005/ns/business-cnbc_tv/t/hollywoods-new-piracy-problem-stolen-scripts/#.Tx6LubKVjJM http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13050005/ns/business-cnbc_tv/t/h... http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/15641336/ns/today-entertainment/t/million-dollar-ideas-often-stolen-hollywood/ http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/15641336/ns/today-entertainmen... http://artherworldblog.wordpress.com/2011/11/09/the-u-s-supreme-court-denies-cert-to-hollywood%E2%80%99s-%E2%80%9Cstolen-scripts%E2%80%9D-case/ http://artherworldblog.wordpress.com/2011/11/09/the-u-s-supr... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buchwald_v._Paramount http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buchwald_v._Paramount http://www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-342111-matrix-ripped-off-the-third-eye.html http://www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-34211... So... the question is; are you a liar or just ignorant?
  - FreakLegion 15y ago
    So, let's go in order. a. I didn't downvote you. I don't meet the karma requirement, and even if I had the karma, downvoting is for "mean and/or stupid comments." The comment I'm now replying to qualifies. Your original comment did not. b. You were right that Hollywood has a reputation for stealing a script if they like it. What isn't true is that Hollywood actually steals scripts. I'll give you a comparable example: Catholic priests. Catholic priests have a reputation for molesting children. But what percentage of Catholic priests actually does so? How does that percentage compare to the percentage of molesters in the rest of the population? Follow that down the rabbit hole and you'll see the problem with your hasty generalization. Now, to your links: 1. Sounds like a legitimate claim. The lawyer saying "screenplays are stolen all the time in Hollywood," on the other hand, does not. That's just a lawyer posturing in the interests of his client for media coverage. I've followed many similar suits. The vast majority of them are completely bogus. 2. This one is a lot of FUD. You can't get around copyright by "simply tweaking a few details." The actual standard is a "sufficient degree of similarity." That's why, if the first article is accurate (not a given) and Reed Martin isn't stretching the truth in his explanation of the similarities, he has a good case. Without hearing more about the "stolen" version of Rounders, we can't say whether Jeff Grosso isn't just paranoid. Most likely the similarities between the two boil down to "guys playing poker," give or take. Maybe he should sue the creators of 21, Shade, et al., too? 3. The Supreme Court declined to hear a case, as they do with most of the cases that come their way. There's no support for your claim here. 4. It isn't at all clear from this case that any theft took place. What is clear is that there were sufficient similarities that the studio should have paid Buchwald regardless. 5. http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/matrix.asp http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/matrix.asp Nope. If hearing all this makes you angry, I recommend going for a jog. It's better for your health than fuming at the keyboard.
danssig 15y ago
Congrats to all the people who downvoted me for an apparently unpopular opinion. It's pretty bizarre to me that anyone would be surprised by this though. Look at what Hollywood does these days: remakes and sequals. Nearly ever "original" movie you think Hollywood made was actually taken from foreign films (e.g. "Shall we dance" was copied from "Shall we Dansu". Hollywood is now copying "Old Boy" and the lead actor for the original is upset about the behavior). Anyway, for those who aren't aware of how Hollywood behaves: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13050005/ns/business-cnbc_tv/t/hollywoods-new-piracy-problem-stolen-scripts/#.Tx6LubKVjJM http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13050005/ns/business-cnbc_tv/t/h... http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/15641336/ns/today-entertainment/t/million-dollar-ideas-often-stolen-hollywood/ http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/15641336/ns/today-entertainmen... http://artherworldblog.wordpress.com/2011/11/09/the-u-s-supreme-court-denies-cert-to-hollywood%E2%80%99s-%E2%80%9Cstolen-scripts%E2%80%9D-case/ http://artherworldblog.wordpress.com/2011/11/09/the-u-s-supr... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buchwald_v._Paramount http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buchwald_v._Paramount http://www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-342111-matrix-ripped-off-the-third-eye.html http://www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-34211...

Well, Hollywood also has a reputation for simply stealing a script if they like it.

by danssig 15y ago

Well, Hollywood also has a reputation for simply stealing a script if they like it.

FreakLegion 15y ago

It's true that this is a common belief among outsiders, but it's not true that it's actually...true.

onemoreact 15y ago
Do you have a better expiation for how often multiple studio's put out near identical movies at the same time?
- FreakLegion 15y ago
  By near identical do you mean, say, Armageddon and Deep Impact? Because there's a world of difference between two movies having the same high concept and actually being near identical. Parallel development of premises is bound to happen, particularly with ones as obvious as catastrophic events and casual sex. It's not even that there are ethical reasons people in Hollywood don't steal scripts. The reasons are practical: if your script is good, it's going to cost me a lot less to pay you for it than it would cost to pay some other more established writer's quote to develop a new script from the same premise.
  - onemoreact 15y ago
    That's a reasonable first approximation. But let's say two studio's both like the script and only one wins the bidding war. What stops the other studio from farming out the 'high concept' to someone else to write an also ran. As far as I can see nothing, so the value of a script is basically limited by what it costs someone else to create the same basic concept. Toss in the fact that scripts tend to mutate after production anyway and the 'we can always steal it' must be at the back of all negotiations. Which is oddly similar to the buy vs. pirate internal debate I have seen several people go though on hard to find content. EX: Underworld did not use any of white wolf's IP. There was a negotiation, but in the end the studio 'went in another direction' that just happened to look the same as if they had used their IP.
    - FreakLegion 15y ago
      I'm glad you brought up White Wolf v. Sony. I think Penny Arcade's response at the time summed it up pretty well: Comic: http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/09/08 http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/09/08 Post: http://penny-arcade.com/2003/09/08/ http://penny-arcade.com/2003/09/08/ However, despite following the case closely at the time, I've never heard about any negotiations between White Wolf and Sony at any stage of the film's development. On the contrary, emails from within White Wolf indicate they were completely unaware of the film until the first trailer was released. Do you have a source for your claim that there were negotiations? To answer your question: nothing stops a studio from piggybacking on someone else's concept, and nothing should. The Asylum's entire business model is based on it (though they also engage in the somewhat unethical practice of copying names, when they can). White Wolf has no claim to the basic ideas underpinning the World of Darkness. There's nothing unique or innovative there. The same thing applies to The Vampire Diaries (books and TV show), Twilight (books and film), True Blood (books and TV show), and so on, of course.
    - jonnathanson 15y ago
      "the 'we can always steal it' must be at the back of all negotiations." With all due respect, this is a big and mostly incorrect leap. If intellectual theft happens in Hollywood, it's typically an exception and not, as you're implying, a general rule. It certainly isn't something studio execs keep in the back of their minds as part of the development process. That's outlandish. Most studios are extremely frightened of litigation over this very topic. So much so, that when I worked at a TV studio buying scripts, I was not even allowed to open any unsolicited material sent my way. If someone sent me a package, and I didn't recognize the return address, I sent it off to legal, to be returned unopened. About 99% of the scripts and ideas I was pitched came about in meetings with agencies and/or producers, who were also bringing the same material to all of my competitors. The behaviors you're ascribing to studios seem to be occurring at the producer level. There's a high variance of ethical and professional conduct among production companies and producers, in as much as they're not public companies like the big studios and networks are. They don't have a set rulebook. Most of the more established producers are unlikely to steal material, because it's a terrible long-term business strategy (a producer's reputation is his meal ticket). That said, are there some shady folks on the fringes of the business? Yes. Anyone who says otherwise is being willfully naive. But the idea that people at studios actually calculate theft into their buying or development strategies is patently absurd. "What stops the other studio from farming out the 'high concept' to someone else to write an also ran." Three things stopped me from doing that, and stopped my peers from doing that: 1) Personal and professional integrity. 2) Relationships and reputation. (Hollywood is an extremely relationship-driven business. As a development executive, I was worth approximately nothing; what made me relevant to my employers was my network of writers, agents, and producers I could bring to bear for projects. Burning any of these people would have been career suicide). 3) Fear of litigation. In that order.
- zacharycohn 15y ago
  Look at the Startup World. There are twelve different startups doing the more or less exact same thing. None of them "stole" the idea from anyone else.
danssig 15y ago
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13050005/ns/business-cnbc_tv/t/hollywoods-new-piracy-problem-stolen-scripts/#.Tx6LubKVjJM http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13050005/ns/business-cnbc_tv/t/h... http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/15641336/ns/today-entertainment/t/million-dollar-ideas-often-stolen-hollywood/ http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/15641336/ns/today-entertainmen... http://artherworldblog.wordpress.com/2011/11/09/the-u-s-supreme-court-denies-cert-to-hollywood%E2%80%99s-%E2%80%9Cstolen-scripts%E2%80%9D-case/ http://artherworldblog.wordpress.com/2011/11/09/the-u-s-supr... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buchwald_v._Paramount http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buchwald_v._Paramount http://www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-342111-matrix-ripped-off-the-third-eye.html http://www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-34211... So... the question is; are you a liar or just ignorant?
- FreakLegion 15y ago
  So, let's go in order. a. I didn't downvote you. I don't meet the karma requirement, and even if I had the karma, downvoting is for "mean and/or stupid comments." The comment I'm now replying to qualifies. Your original comment did not. b. You were right that Hollywood has a reputation for stealing a script if they like it. What isn't true is that Hollywood actually steals scripts. I'll give you a comparable example: Catholic priests. Catholic priests have a reputation for molesting children. But what percentage of Catholic priests actually does so? How does that percentage compare to the percentage of molesters in the rest of the population? Follow that down the rabbit hole and you'll see the problem with your hasty generalization. Now, to your links: 1. Sounds like a legitimate claim. The lawyer saying "screenplays are stolen all the time in Hollywood," on the other hand, does not. That's just a lawyer posturing in the interests of his client for media coverage. I've followed many similar suits. The vast majority of them are completely bogus. 2. This one is a lot of FUD. You can't get around copyright by "simply tweaking a few details." The actual standard is a "sufficient degree of similarity." That's why, if the first article is accurate (not a given) and Reed Martin isn't stretching the truth in his explanation of the similarities, he has a good case. Without hearing more about the "stolen" version of Rounders, we can't say whether Jeff Grosso isn't just paranoid. Most likely the similarities between the two boil down to "guys playing poker," give or take. Maybe he should sue the creators of 21, Shade, et al., too? 3. The Supreme Court declined to hear a case, as they do with most of the cases that come their way. There's no support for your claim here. 4. It isn't at all clear from this case that any theft took place. What is clear is that there were sufficient similarities that the studio should have paid Buchwald regardless. 5. http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/matrix.asp http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/matrix.asp Nope. If hearing all this makes you angry, I recommend going for a jog. It's better for your health than fuming at the keyboard.

danssig 15y ago

Congrats to all the people who downvoted me for an apparently unpopular opinion. It's pretty bizarre to me that anyone would be surprised by this though. Look at what Hollywood does these days: remakes and sequals. Nearly ever "original" movie you think Hollywood made was actually taken from foreign films (e.g. "Shall we dance" was copied from "Shall we Dansu". Hollywood is now copying "Old Boy" and the lead actor for the original is upset about the behavior). Anyway, for those who aren't aware of how Hollywood behaves: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13050005/ns/business-cnbc_tv/t/hollywoods-new-piracy-problem-stolen-scripts/#.Tx6LubKVjJM http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13050005/ns/business-cnbc_tv/t/h... http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/15641336/ns/today-entertainment/t/million-dollar-ideas-often-stolen-hollywood/ http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/15641336/ns/today-entertainmen... http://artherworldblog.wordpress.com/2011/11/09/the-u-s-supreme-court-denies-cert-to-hollywood%E2%80%99s-%E2%80%9Cstolen-scripts%E2%80%9D-case/ http://artherworldblog.wordpress.com/2011/11/09/the-u-s-supr... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buchwald_v._Paramount http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buchwald_v._Paramount http://www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-342111-matrix-ripped-off-the-third-eye.html http://www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-34211...