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> Funny, in most my friends groups someone checks their phone and I'm glad they do I hate it, it just completely disrupts the conversation, as OP said. > Why

> Funny, in most my friends groups someone checks their phone and I'm glad they do I hate it, it just completely disrupts the conversation, as OP said. > Why would we be talking about this if we didn't care about the truth of it? Because often it doesn't matter. The truth of who plays in a movie really doesn't matter as much as people think it does, even when discussing the movie itself. And if it's not important enough to remember, I say it definitely doesn't matter as much as whatever else was going on in the conversation surrounding it.

xmprt 4y ago
> Because often it doesn't matter. I guess the parent commenter and I don't understand why the specific fact is even mentioned if it doesn't matter. In other words, in what situation would you mention "X acted in that movie" but that detail doesn't matter to the broader point that you're trying to make. If it's important to get right then you should verify and if it's not important then don't specify the detail and instead only say the necessary details which add to your point and that you're confident about.
- JohnFen 4y ago
  Good advice for a presentation or debate, but I think this is a terrible approach to casual conversation.
- kamikaz1k 4y ago
  Sometimes to tell a story you add a bunch of extra details, that are not critically relevant to whatever you are trying to say. Maybe you're saying you love Michael Bay movies, and then you list off a bunch of movies. And the other participant in the conversation might be like: actually I don't think Michael Bay did The Notebook. You might engage in the dispute, or move past it. Or if it's a very casual conversation, turn it into a rhetoric exchange where you try to convince it must indeed have been Michael Bay. Point being, just be aware of why you're having the conversation. If for you it is an exchange of facts, fine, do the dive (sometimes, I do this). But often, it doesn't seem to matter for the larger story you are trying to tell - I love boom boom Michael Bay movies, share your favourite boom boom movies. Last thing is, sometimes people come across as totalizing in text but they're really just saying something broadly. This is good conversational style, kinda like this thread, where you go through a collaborative exposition. Vs someone who nails all the details from the get go, and also manages to capture the relative weightings of each scenario in a way that read lightly. Okay, maybe I am rambling a bit now...what was Michael Bay's last movie again?
  - steve_adams_86 4y ago
    > what was Michael Bay's last movie again? The Forever Purge I googled it, but made sure I wasn't phubbing anyone in the process
    - kulahan 4y ago
      And yet, this information enriched nobody. Almost certainly, we’ll all forget within 15 minutes of leaving this conversation. And what if everyone walked away thinking it was actually Transformers 12? Well, that’s okay. It doesn’t matter at all. Everyone’s gonna forget in 15 minutes, and for people who care a lot, they probably already know and can tell others.
      - steve_adams_86 4y ago
        I completely agree. I think we tend to like to analyze because it gives us a sense of control. That sounds a little crazy, but the more I break it down (and read the work of intelligent people who had/have similar beliefs), the more I believe it. A common example is how people examine their feelings and experiences as a means to distance themselves from it and to gain a sense of superiority or power over it. The more we analyze and break it down, the better we think we understand it and have a higher vantage. In reality all we're doing is constantly separating ourselves further and further from immediate experience at the expense of "knowing" things. Ironically, the more we "know" the less we can actually know because we're so detached from the experiences we're analyzing. Apologies if that seems totally out there and not founded in anything logical. It's one of those things that makes sense to me, but I haven't yet found practical or concise ways to express the problem. I definitely do find people, phones, and needing to know everything seems to be in lock-step with this phenomenon. Another good example is the need to put down things (i.e. celebrities, video games, movies, music; typically things we consume as part of cultural expression) which don't actually have much meaning, but might destabilize our identities in some inconsequential way. People do this a tremendous amount, and it means absolutely nothing. Sort of like, oh man that Kim Kardashian, what a loser. I saw her do X and Y on Z tv show and [insert why that's lame you're better]. It's this bizarre need we have to elevate ourselves over experience rather than simply let things be what they are.
- dorchadas 4y ago
  Because conversation doesn't (and shouldn't) work like that. There's plenty of asides, or casual mentions of things that are only slightly relevant or add to the point without being all that important. Say we're talking about genetic engineering and I say something like 'This reminds me of that one movie where the one like normal guy, I think it was Tom Cruise, is trying to go into space'. It doesn't matter that I'm talking about Gattaca, or that it was Ethan Hawke and not Tom Cruise (a name just pulled out of the hat) and maybe even messing up plot details, and stopping to look it up just completely ruins the flow and break conversation. I had this happen in person last week when someone mentioned Irish had a word for a three month period, but nobody could remember it. Several people went to their phone dictionaries immediately and it just stopped the conversation (and none were able to find it, either). So there's lots of times we bring stuff up just as an aside or to add a little more flavour without it being important in conversation. I'd say that's hoe conversation should work not just 'Here's my point and all the facts that back it up.' There's no flow there, it becomes more like a debate or presentation, not a conversation. And if people are curious or it really was important, you can always look it up and send it later, but you'll often find nobody is that curious and it isn't that important.
  - BeetleB 4y ago
    > Because conversation doesn't (and shouldn't) work like that. It often does. Not everyone is like you. Not everyone wants the same things from a conversation as you. I agree that a lot of times, the veracity of these details don't matter. I know I'm going to get a lot of hate for this, but: In my experience, there is a strong correlation between those who do not like being fact checked in these social situations, and those who make factually incorrect statements when it clearly matters (e.g. accusing someone of poor behavior, business transactions, etc). We may be in the minority, but some of us do care to know whether you can be trusted. It's one thing to be up front and speak tentatively, and be open that you've gotten details wrong. It's another to give a fantastic narrative that happens to be full of incorrect details, and then complain when someone points it out.
    - macintux 4y ago
      Many shades of grey here. If someone is telling you a fantastic story about their background in hopes to con you, obviously fact checking is useful. If someone is simply weaving an interesting narrative, fact checking is at best a distraction, and often just a way for someone to “well actually” themselves into the spotlight. Whether that’s justified is a question that has no absolute answers, but for most people the conversation is the fun part. (Not me, but I’m an anti-social loner and I have no interest in making other people more unhappy than is necessary.)
patapong 4y ago
Yes! Most conversation is not about fact-finding, but about the conversation itself. Comparing a situation where facts serve as a conduit for further discussion, and people weighing in to try to establish something, versus a situation where someone looks at their phone, finds the answer, and effectively ends this conversation topic, I vastly prefer the former. It's similar to experiencing a movie and being surprised by the twist, versus reading what the twist is. The journey is more important than the result.
lelanthran 4y ago
> Because often it doesn't matter. Well, it matters to me that I be corrected sooner rather than later. We're sitting in a conversation and someone says "well, that actor also played $CHARACTER in $OTHERFRANCHISE", and I think that it was actually $OTHERACTOR, I'd rather know for certain whether I have misconceptions or not. Obviously, if we're actually talking about it, it does matter to the participants. To you actors may not matter, but I guarantee you're not sitting around idly having conversations where the topic doesn't matter to you.

xmprt 4y ago

> Because often it doesn't matter. I guess the parent commenter and I don't understand why the specific fact is even mentioned if it doesn't matter. In other words, in what situation would you mention "X acted in that movie" but that detail doesn't matter to the broader point that you're trying to make. If it's important to get right then you should verify and if it's not important then don't specify the detail and instead only say the necessary details which add to your point and that you're confident about.

JohnFen 4y ago
Good advice for a presentation or debate, but I think this is a terrible approach to casual conversation.
kamikaz1k 4y ago
Sometimes to tell a story you add a bunch of extra details, that are not critically relevant to whatever you are trying to say. Maybe you're saying you love Michael Bay movies, and then you list off a bunch of movies. And the other participant in the conversation might be like: actually I don't think Michael Bay did The Notebook. You might engage in the dispute, or move past it. Or if it's a very casual conversation, turn it into a rhetoric exchange where you try to convince it must indeed have been Michael Bay. Point being, just be aware of why you're having the conversation. If for you it is an exchange of facts, fine, do the dive (sometimes, I do this). But often, it doesn't seem to matter for the larger story you are trying to tell - I love boom boom Michael Bay movies, share your favourite boom boom movies. Last thing is, sometimes people come across as totalizing in text but they're really just saying something broadly. This is good conversational style, kinda like this thread, where you go through a collaborative exposition. Vs someone who nails all the details from the get go, and also manages to capture the relative weightings of each scenario in a way that read lightly. Okay, maybe I am rambling a bit now...what was Michael Bay's last movie again?
- steve_adams_86 4y ago
  > what was Michael Bay's last movie again? The Forever Purge I googled it, but made sure I wasn't phubbing anyone in the process
  - kulahan 4y ago
    And yet, this information enriched nobody. Almost certainly, we’ll all forget within 15 minutes of leaving this conversation. And what if everyone walked away thinking it was actually Transformers 12? Well, that’s okay. It doesn’t matter at all. Everyone’s gonna forget in 15 minutes, and for people who care a lot, they probably already know and can tell others.
    - steve_adams_86 4y ago
      I completely agree. I think we tend to like to analyze because it gives us a sense of control. That sounds a little crazy, but the more I break it down (and read the work of intelligent people who had/have similar beliefs), the more I believe it. A common example is how people examine their feelings and experiences as a means to distance themselves from it and to gain a sense of superiority or power over it. The more we analyze and break it down, the better we think we understand it and have a higher vantage. In reality all we're doing is constantly separating ourselves further and further from immediate experience at the expense of "knowing" things. Ironically, the more we "know" the less we can actually know because we're so detached from the experiences we're analyzing. Apologies if that seems totally out there and not founded in anything logical. It's one of those things that makes sense to me, but I haven't yet found practical or concise ways to express the problem. I definitely do find people, phones, and needing to know everything seems to be in lock-step with this phenomenon. Another good example is the need to put down things (i.e. celebrities, video games, movies, music; typically things we consume as part of cultural expression) which don't actually have much meaning, but might destabilize our identities in some inconsequential way. People do this a tremendous amount, and it means absolutely nothing. Sort of like, oh man that Kim Kardashian, what a loser. I saw her do X and Y on Z tv show and [insert why that's lame you're better]. It's this bizarre need we have to elevate ourselves over experience rather than simply let things be what they are.
dorchadas 4y ago
Because conversation doesn't (and shouldn't) work like that. There's plenty of asides, or casual mentions of things that are only slightly relevant or add to the point without being all that important. Say we're talking about genetic engineering and I say something like 'This reminds me of that one movie where the one like normal guy, I think it was Tom Cruise, is trying to go into space'. It doesn't matter that I'm talking about Gattaca, or that it was Ethan Hawke and not Tom Cruise (a name just pulled out of the hat) and maybe even messing up plot details, and stopping to look it up just completely ruins the flow and break conversation. I had this happen in person last week when someone mentioned Irish had a word for a three month period, but nobody could remember it. Several people went to their phone dictionaries immediately and it just stopped the conversation (and none were able to find it, either). So there's lots of times we bring stuff up just as an aside or to add a little more flavour without it being important in conversation. I'd say that's hoe conversation should work not just 'Here's my point and all the facts that back it up.' There's no flow there, it becomes more like a debate or presentation, not a conversation. And if people are curious or it really was important, you can always look it up and send it later, but you'll often find nobody is that curious and it isn't that important.
- BeetleB 4y ago
  > Because conversation doesn't (and shouldn't) work like that. It often does. Not everyone is like you. Not everyone wants the same things from a conversation as you. I agree that a lot of times, the veracity of these details don't matter. I know I'm going to get a lot of hate for this, but: In my experience, there is a strong correlation between those who do not like being fact checked in these social situations, and those who make factually incorrect statements when it clearly matters (e.g. accusing someone of poor behavior, business transactions, etc). We may be in the minority, but some of us do care to know whether you can be trusted. It's one thing to be up front and speak tentatively, and be open that you've gotten details wrong. It's another to give a fantastic narrative that happens to be full of incorrect details, and then complain when someone points it out.
  - macintux 4y ago
    Many shades of grey here. If someone is telling you a fantastic story about their background in hopes to con you, obviously fact checking is useful. If someone is simply weaving an interesting narrative, fact checking is at best a distraction, and often just a way for someone to “well actually” themselves into the spotlight. Whether that’s justified is a question that has no absolute answers, but for most people the conversation is the fun part. (Not me, but I’m an anti-social loner and I have no interest in making other people more unhappy than is necessary.)

patapong 4y ago

Yes! Most conversation is not about fact-finding, but about the conversation itself. Comparing a situation where facts serve as a conduit for further discussion, and people weighing in to try to establish something, versus a situation where someone looks at their phone, finds the answer, and effectively ends this conversation topic, I vastly prefer the former. It's similar to experiencing a movie and being surprised by the twist, versus reading what the twist is. The journey is more important than the result.

lelanthran 4y ago

> Because often it doesn't matter. Well, it matters to me that I be corrected sooner rather than later. We're sitting in a conversation and someone says "well, that actor also played $CHARACTER in $OTHERFRANCHISE", and I think that it was actually $OTHERACTOR, I'd rather know for certain whether I have misconceptions or not. Obviously, if we're actually talking about it, it does matter to the participants. To you actors may not matter, but I guarantee you're not sitting around idly having conversations where the topic doesn't matter to you.