5 ms·

Having worked in that type of space. We tried for years to get some sort of thing to work like this for shipping containers. As the space is huge and a decent

Having worked in that type of space. We tried for years to get some sort of thing to work like this for shipping containers. As the space is huge and a decent ROI. The problem we had was battery life and endurance. At best we were getting 2-3 years in really good conditions. For some items that works great. But for others not so much. Usually very high/low temps and stacked under 10 other containers and 0 signal and bashed around in a shipping yard. You can not put it in the container as it degrades the signal too much. On the outside it is a harsh env. Tough space to work in. There are companies out there that have other solutions that worked better than what we had.

grishka 4y ago
> You can not put it in the container as it degrades the signal too much. On the outside it is a harsh env. My first thought was to put the device itself inside but the antenna outside. But I suppose there are reasons why that won't work either?
- JohnBooty 4y ago
  put the antenna outside I don't work in this industry, but container ships carry from 1,000-14,000 containers at a time. Your container is likely to be in the middle of an absolutely massive stack of containers so even if you make your shipping container have great reception, it's still going to be buried under millions of tons of steel and god-knows-what-else. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Container_ship#Size_categories https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Container_ship#Size_categories I'm not entirely sure it's necessary, either. Presumably the shipping company knows which boatyard/truck/ship has your container, where that boatyard/truck/ship is, and there is some sort of liability/insurance in place and I don't know that entire containers get lost with the same frequency as individual packages. (Those in the know, please correct me!)
  - nordsieck 4y ago
    > I don't know that entire containers get lost with the same frequency as individual packages. There are some that fall overboard[1]. I'm sure it's not huge compared to the global volume shipped, but the risk is there. --- 1. https://www.supplychainbrain.com/articles/33002-shipping-containers-are-falling-overboard-at-a-rapid-rate https://www.supplychainbrain.com/articles/33002-shipping-con...
    - JohnBooty 4y ago
      While it's certainly not a negligible problem if your container goes overboard, seems nearly negligible as a whole! The linked article seems to suggest that it's a few thousand containers per year out of 226 million. Pretty darn good. I would love to know more about the industry in general. When you ship a container, what kind of tracking information do you get? Etc. Theoretically it's relatively easy (not easy but... relatively easy) for shipping companies to provide that info (they know that container X is on ship Y and presumably know where ship Y is and when it's expected in port) but, I don't know how that industry works. I do know that there are a lot of sensors you can attach to individual packages that let you know if your packages have exceeded g-force, temperature, or orientation thresholds during shipping. They're not necessarily wireless or satellite enabled, but when the package arrives, they make it possible to verify that the package has remained within acceptable limits during transit. I imagine at least some of that tech is used in the container shipping industry as well. Maybe.
      - nordsieck 4y ago
        > I would love to know more about the industry in general. When you ship a container, what kind of tracking information do you get? Etc. Theoretically it's relatively easy (not easy but... relatively easy) for shipping companies to provide that info (they know that container X is on ship Y and presumably know where ship Y is and when it's expected in port) but, I don't know how that industry works. I haven't worked in the industry, but I have worked for FedEx for a short time. I have to imagine there are at least some similarities. At FedEx, you're supposed to scan each package "received" at the warehouse. And then scan it again when it's loaded onto a truck. But when you have so many packages to deal with, sometimes boxes go onto the wrong truck. Sometimes boxes go onto the right truck, but they don't get scanned. Sometimes boxes are mislabeled. Or misrouted. Sometimes the recipient goes out of business. Or moves. Sometimes the label is unreadable. Sometimes there are multiple different addresses on the box. I'm sure all that stuff happens to containers as well. Especially when the largest ships are above 14000 TEU.
- sumtechguy 4y ago
  We went down that route. Your 'easy to install' is now drilling/cutting holes into the container. Then hope your cable does not act as a wick. Cost to install is now dramatically higher. Remember the shipping on these things is razor thin. The shipping company makes it up in volume. So if you go and add 500+ onto install they look for other solutions. The best one I saw was a giant bar code spray painted on the side of the thing and then make it up in the software back end. Low cost, easy to fix and fairly long lasting. Downside is no realtime tracking. Plus the stacking issue is a big issue.
- trillic 4y ago
  Can the container not be the antenna?
jandrese 4y ago
Couldn't you package it up in a waterproof enclosure that is then glued inside the corrugations on the outside of a container? It might still be damaged, but it seems like it should usually survive. Power is definitely an issue, but you can pack a handful of D cells in there and run it in ultra-low power mode to stretch them out. Of course if someone wants to do something nefarious they'll be able to just bash your device with a hammer to disable it, but that's true no matter where it is mounted.
- sumtechguy 4y ago
  The more batteries you add the more the cost you add. You also need a bigger enclosure. Someone to put it together, etc. Low power mode for the devices works to a point. But eventually the battery just gives out (age or usage). Which means you have to have someone go out and touch the thing. You need more power to go further with the radio so more batteries. The dudes working the docks probably are not allowed to do it. So you have to send a team out there to fix them up. Oh and that device is 'dead' so good luck finding it in the 20k+ containers in the current yard. You can prevent that to a point with scheduled maintenance. But again you are now pull containers out of service waiting for 'the guy' and your guy waiting for him to show up too, and that is costing money and time. Malicious abuse is usually found fairly quickly in that industry and usually obvious it is happening. It is accidental and environmental that are the bigger problems. The more you harden for the environment the higher the cost on build, install, and replacement. There are several key factors that go into making 10,000 of something. I can make 1-2 wickedly hardened items as prototypes. But make 10k of them takes a different set of skills and cost factors. Then you have to pay guys decent rates to go out and install/maintain them. Remember the guys running these companies are very cost sensitive. You can literally wipe out their whole margin on one container if you cost too much. Endpoint tracking/scanning which they use the majority of the time is shockingly effective. Not perfect but very effective. Tracking the vehicle the item is on is usually more cost effective. For some loads it makes sense to track it that sensitively but most of the time it does not matter. Our cost budget for just materials (no manufacture) was 20-50 dollars a unit. We could not get anywhere near that. Just the radio was most of the budget let alone the cables, board, ics and case and battery. So the project was shelved. There are companies out there that make these sorts of things. But their costs are usually 500-3000 per unit plus install/ongoing costs.

grishka 4y ago

> You can not put it in the container as it degrades the signal too much. On the outside it is a harsh env. My first thought was to put the device itself inside but the antenna outside. But I suppose there are reasons why that won't work either?

JohnBooty 4y ago
put the antenna outside I don't work in this industry, but container ships carry from 1,000-14,000 containers at a time. Your container is likely to be in the middle of an absolutely massive stack of containers so even if you make your shipping container have great reception, it's still going to be buried under millions of tons of steel and god-knows-what-else. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Container_ship#Size_categories https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Container_ship#Size_categories I'm not entirely sure it's necessary, either. Presumably the shipping company knows which boatyard/truck/ship has your container, where that boatyard/truck/ship is, and there is some sort of liability/insurance in place and I don't know that entire containers get lost with the same frequency as individual packages. (Those in the know, please correct me!)
- nordsieck 4y ago
  > I don't know that entire containers get lost with the same frequency as individual packages. There are some that fall overboard[1]. I'm sure it's not huge compared to the global volume shipped, but the risk is there. --- 1. https://www.supplychainbrain.com/articles/33002-shipping-containers-are-falling-overboard-at-a-rapid-rate https://www.supplychainbrain.com/articles/33002-shipping-con...
  - JohnBooty 4y ago
    While it's certainly not a negligible problem if your container goes overboard, seems nearly negligible as a whole! The linked article seems to suggest that it's a few thousand containers per year out of 226 million. Pretty darn good. I would love to know more about the industry in general. When you ship a container, what kind of tracking information do you get? Etc. Theoretically it's relatively easy (not easy but... relatively easy) for shipping companies to provide that info (they know that container X is on ship Y and presumably know where ship Y is and when it's expected in port) but, I don't know how that industry works. I do know that there are a lot of sensors you can attach to individual packages that let you know if your packages have exceeded g-force, temperature, or orientation thresholds during shipping. They're not necessarily wireless or satellite enabled, but when the package arrives, they make it possible to verify that the package has remained within acceptable limits during transit. I imagine at least some of that tech is used in the container shipping industry as well. Maybe.
    - nordsieck 4y ago
      > I would love to know more about the industry in general. When you ship a container, what kind of tracking information do you get? Etc. Theoretically it's relatively easy (not easy but... relatively easy) for shipping companies to provide that info (they know that container X is on ship Y and presumably know where ship Y is and when it's expected in port) but, I don't know how that industry works. I haven't worked in the industry, but I have worked for FedEx for a short time. I have to imagine there are at least some similarities. At FedEx, you're supposed to scan each package "received" at the warehouse. And then scan it again when it's loaded onto a truck. But when you have so many packages to deal with, sometimes boxes go onto the wrong truck. Sometimes boxes go onto the right truck, but they don't get scanned. Sometimes boxes are mislabeled. Or misrouted. Sometimes the recipient goes out of business. Or moves. Sometimes the label is unreadable. Sometimes there are multiple different addresses on the box. I'm sure all that stuff happens to containers as well. Especially when the largest ships are above 14000 TEU.
sumtechguy 4y ago
We went down that route. Your 'easy to install' is now drilling/cutting holes into the container. Then hope your cable does not act as a wick. Cost to install is now dramatically higher. Remember the shipping on these things is razor thin. The shipping company makes it up in volume. So if you go and add 500+ onto install they look for other solutions. The best one I saw was a giant bar code spray painted on the side of the thing and then make it up in the software back end. Low cost, easy to fix and fairly long lasting. Downside is no realtime tracking. Plus the stacking issue is a big issue.
trillic 4y ago
Can the container not be the antenna?

jandrese 4y ago

Couldn't you package it up in a waterproof enclosure that is then glued inside the corrugations on the outside of a container? It might still be damaged, but it seems like it should usually survive. Power is definitely an issue, but you can pack a handful of D cells in there and run it in ultra-low power mode to stretch them out. Of course if someone wants to do something nefarious they'll be able to just bash your device with a hammer to disable it, but that's true no matter where it is mounted.

sumtechguy 4y ago
The more batteries you add the more the cost you add. You also need a bigger enclosure. Someone to put it together, etc. Low power mode for the devices works to a point. But eventually the battery just gives out (age or usage). Which means you have to have someone go out and touch the thing. You need more power to go further with the radio so more batteries. The dudes working the docks probably are not allowed to do it. So you have to send a team out there to fix them up. Oh and that device is 'dead' so good luck finding it in the 20k+ containers in the current yard. You can prevent that to a point with scheduled maintenance. But again you are now pull containers out of service waiting for 'the guy' and your guy waiting for him to show up too, and that is costing money and time. Malicious abuse is usually found fairly quickly in that industry and usually obvious it is happening. It is accidental and environmental that are the bigger problems. The more you harden for the environment the higher the cost on build, install, and replacement. There are several key factors that go into making 10,000 of something. I can make 1-2 wickedly hardened items as prototypes. But make 10k of them takes a different set of skills and cost factors. Then you have to pay guys decent rates to go out and install/maintain them. Remember the guys running these companies are very cost sensitive. You can literally wipe out their whole margin on one container if you cost too much. Endpoint tracking/scanning which they use the majority of the time is shockingly effective. Not perfect but very effective. Tracking the vehicle the item is on is usually more cost effective. For some loads it makes sense to track it that sensitively but most of the time it does not matter. Our cost budget for just materials (no manufacture) was 20-50 dollars a unit. We could not get anywhere near that. Just the radio was most of the budget let alone the cables, board, ics and case and battery. So the project was shelved. There are companies out there that make these sorts of things. But their costs are usually 500-3000 per unit plus install/ongoing costs.