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The basic message from EU to innovators is: don't bother. If you manage to create a successful business out of your innovation we will punish you. You created

The basic message from EU to innovators is: don't bother. If you manage to create a successful business out of your innovation we will punish you. You created an advanced easy to use connector for your line of phones? Fuck you, you have to change it to a plug that came later and has a different set of trade offs that may not align with your product. You created a messaging service that was way ahead of its time, and it basically took a decade for others to catch up? Fuck you, provide the fruits of your innovation to everyone for free, erasing your competitive advantage.

TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
If everyone would release their own incompatible version of TCP protocol, internet would have never happen to be. This is just same interoperability on higher level.
- DaiPlusPlus 4y ago
  It happened: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_Wars
- microtherion 4y ago
  Interoperability undoubtedly has advantages in the long run. But there's a delicate balance to be struck at what point in product evolution to standardize. I'm fine with standardizing on USB-C (even though the cable situation is a mess). But IMHO USB micro would have been inferior to lightning, and forcing Apple to standardize on that would have set back the industry. And imagine laptops if the EU had decided to solve the conference room projector problem by mandating VGA ports in every laptop. I also can't help shaking the feeling that the EU is so happy regulating cell phones and internet services because they have no major players in that field left anymore. Conversely, they seem to be incapable of mandating a unified standard for grounded AC power outlets, although that would surely be equally beneficial.
  - oblio 4y ago
    I did the required reading so you don't have to. This is the law passed: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/TA-9-2022-0338_EN.html https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/TA-9-2022-0338... -> https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/TC1-COD-2021-0291_EN.pdf https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/TC1-COD-2021-0... Guess what, on page 10 the text says: > With respect to charging by means other than wired charging, divergent solutions could be developed in the future, which could have negative impacts on interoperability, on consumer convenience and on the environment. <<Whilst it is premature to impose specific requirements on such solutions at this stage, the Commission should take action towards promoting and harmonising such solutions to avoid future fragmentation of the internal market.>> Unlike the US Constitution, EU laws are not set in stone and they <<are>> updated. > I also can't help shaking the feeling that the EU is so happy regulating cell phones and internet services because they have no major players in that field left anymore. Conversely, they seem to be incapable of mandating a unified standard for grounded AC power outlets, although that would surely be equally beneficial. Hotels and many other places have started offering USB A and USB C ports. I think we're close to the point (5-10 years away?) where you could go to the US from Europe with just a laptop, for 2 weeks, and you'd be able to charge it just by using USB C ports available in restaurants, hotels, bars, offices, etc. On top of that, for wall outlets the EU is mostly standardized except for Denmark, I think.
    - Dalewyn 4y ago
      >Hotels and many other places have started offering USB A and USB C ports. I think we're close to the point (5-10 years away?) where you could go to the US from Europe with just a laptop, for 2 weeks, and you'd be able to charge it just by using USB C ports available in restaurants, hotels, bars, offices, etc. I know EU is very nonchalant about sex, but sticking oneself into random USB ports is a bridge too far.
      - oblio 4y ago
        You mean you're worried about USB attacks?
vernon99 4y ago
This is such a wrong take. As an "innovator" who also worked on one of the largest messaging apps: I'm VERY happy about this change. Very long due. If properly executed, this gives a very large advantage to startups against those established network effects. And for late stage founders this is not an issue anyway and also makes them shift their focus back to product.
adam_arthur 4y ago
Competition drives innovation, believe it or not. Leveraging bundling to avoid having software compete on their individual merits 1:1 with competitors is not good for innovation
- scarface74 4y ago
  Yes that’s why all of the successful tech companies come out of the EU…
  - adam_arthur 4y ago
    A fact that is not related to the discussion. There have been no laws towards fostering competition within walled gardens in either the US or EU until now. Apple had no app store competition until now. Do you contend the app store will not see material improvements in the future now that it finally has within bundle competition? Why has Apple suddenly started investing so heavily in Safari over the past year, now that they will soon be forced to allow competing browsers?
    - scarface74 4y ago
      Apple has plenty of competition for their product that includes an App Store. If you don’t like their product, you’re free to get an Android device like 85% of the rest of the world and 2/3rd of the EU.
      - adam_arthur 4y ago
        The nuance of anti-competitiveness through bundling or the merits of competition at more granular levels appears lost to you. If products have to compete on their own merits, rather than leaning on other aspects of a larger bundle, then software and products get better for all of society. For example, if you were allowed to install any car OS you wanted, rather than forced to use the manufacturers, car OSes would improve significantly. Some people will buy a car for the hardware, despite terrible software. This is bad for the evolution of car software. If a manufacturer was forced to compete, they would have to invest more heavily in improving their software... or simply cede control of the OS to a better implemented third party one, and focus on the hardware. Both outcomes are better for consumers than allowing anti-competitiveness via bundling
account42 4y ago
If your business model relies on vendor lockin then yes, please don't bother.
rkangel 4y ago
This only applies to the very biggest companies. It is about preventing companies using their scale and dominance to prevent innovation in OTHERS. It opens UP the market.
gambiting 4y ago
>> Fuck you, you have to change it to a plug that came later and has a different set of trade offs that may not align with your product. Quick reminder that Apple was literally one of the companies that invented USB-C and already uses USB-C across many lines of their products. You're making it sound like EU is making them use HDMI for charging or something.

TheLoafOfBread 4y ago

If everyone would release their own incompatible version of TCP protocol, internet would have never happen to be. This is just same interoperability on higher level.

DaiPlusPlus 4y ago
It happened: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_Wars
microtherion 4y ago
Interoperability undoubtedly has advantages in the long run. But there's a delicate balance to be struck at what point in product evolution to standardize. I'm fine with standardizing on USB-C (even though the cable situation is a mess). But IMHO USB micro would have been inferior to lightning, and forcing Apple to standardize on that would have set back the industry. And imagine laptops if the EU had decided to solve the conference room projector problem by mandating VGA ports in every laptop. I also can't help shaking the feeling that the EU is so happy regulating cell phones and internet services because they have no major players in that field left anymore. Conversely, they seem to be incapable of mandating a unified standard for grounded AC power outlets, although that would surely be equally beneficial.
- oblio 4y ago
  I did the required reading so you don't have to. This is the law passed: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/TA-9-2022-0338_EN.html https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/TA-9-2022-0338... -> https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/TC1-COD-2021-0291_EN.pdf https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/TC1-COD-2021-0... Guess what, on page 10 the text says: > With respect to charging by means other than wired charging, divergent solutions could be developed in the future, which could have negative impacts on interoperability, on consumer convenience and on the environment. <<Whilst it is premature to impose specific requirements on such solutions at this stage, the Commission should take action towards promoting and harmonising such solutions to avoid future fragmentation of the internal market.>> Unlike the US Constitution, EU laws are not set in stone and they <<are>> updated. > I also can't help shaking the feeling that the EU is so happy regulating cell phones and internet services because they have no major players in that field left anymore. Conversely, they seem to be incapable of mandating a unified standard for grounded AC power outlets, although that would surely be equally beneficial. Hotels and many other places have started offering USB A and USB C ports. I think we're close to the point (5-10 years away?) where you could go to the US from Europe with just a laptop, for 2 weeks, and you'd be able to charge it just by using USB C ports available in restaurants, hotels, bars, offices, etc. On top of that, for wall outlets the EU is mostly standardized except for Denmark, I think.
  - Dalewyn 4y ago
    >Hotels and many other places have started offering USB A and USB C ports. I think we're close to the point (5-10 years away?) where you could go to the US from Europe with just a laptop, for 2 weeks, and you'd be able to charge it just by using USB C ports available in restaurants, hotels, bars, offices, etc. I know EU is very nonchalant about sex, but sticking oneself into random USB ports is a bridge too far.
    - oblio 4y ago
      You mean you're worried about USB attacks?

vernon99 4y ago

This is such a wrong take. As an "innovator" who also worked on one of the largest messaging apps: I'm VERY happy about this change. Very long due. If properly executed, this gives a very large advantage to startups against those established network effects. And for late stage founders this is not an issue anyway and also makes them shift their focus back to product.

adam_arthur 4y ago

Competition drives innovation, believe it or not. Leveraging bundling to avoid having software compete on their individual merits 1:1 with competitors is not good for innovation

scarface74 4y ago
Yes that’s why all of the successful tech companies come out of the EU…
- adam_arthur 4y ago
  A fact that is not related to the discussion. There have been no laws towards fostering competition within walled gardens in either the US or EU until now. Apple had no app store competition until now. Do you contend the app store will not see material improvements in the future now that it finally has within bundle competition? Why has Apple suddenly started investing so heavily in Safari over the past year, now that they will soon be forced to allow competing browsers?
  - scarface74 4y ago
    Apple has plenty of competition for their product that includes an App Store. If you don’t like their product, you’re free to get an Android device like 85% of the rest of the world and 2/3rd of the EU.
    - adam_arthur 4y ago
      The nuance of anti-competitiveness through bundling or the merits of competition at more granular levels appears lost to you. If products have to compete on their own merits, rather than leaning on other aspects of a larger bundle, then software and products get better for all of society. For example, if you were allowed to install any car OS you wanted, rather than forced to use the manufacturers, car OSes would improve significantly. Some people will buy a car for the hardware, despite terrible software. This is bad for the evolution of car software. If a manufacturer was forced to compete, they would have to invest more heavily in improving their software... or simply cede control of the OS to a better implemented third party one, and focus on the hardware. Both outcomes are better for consumers than allowing anti-competitiveness via bundling

account42 4y ago

If your business model relies on vendor lockin then yes, please don't bother.

rkangel 4y ago

This only applies to the very biggest companies. It is about preventing companies using their scale and dominance to prevent innovation in OTHERS. It opens UP the market.

gambiting 4y ago

>> Fuck you, you have to change it to a plug that came later and has a different set of trade offs that may not align with your product. Quick reminder that Apple was literally one of the companies that invented USB-C and already uses USB-C across many lines of their products. You're making it sound like EU is making them use HDMI for charging or something.