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They don’t realize it because they don’t get any of the benefits. Electricity costs are rising across the country almost without exception. Meanwhile Californi

They don’t realize it because they don’t get any of the benefits. Electricity costs are rising across the country almost without exception. Meanwhile California is paying other states to take electricity because they generate so much excess power during the duck curve (while simultaneously having rolling blackouts)

wpm 4y ago
IL also sells off something like 250MW of excess power but it’s just like that all the time since it’s all coming from our nuclear plants.
- nine_k 4y ago
  250 MW of constantly available power from a reactor may be more valuable than 600 MW during sunshine that goes to 0 MW during night time. Solar will become vastly more valuable once enough electrical storage capacity goes online.
  - euroderf 4y ago
    And after electrical storage capacity is solved, let's work on heat storage capacity. Do I really have to spend ten grand digging up my yard ?
    - nine_k 4y ago
      Like, well, home insulation and heat-exchanging ventilation?
      - euroderf 4y ago
        In Scandinavia the summers provide loooong days. When it's sunny, there is SUCH a surplus of heat that could (in principle) be captured for wintertime use.
    - pxmpxm 4y ago
      I think it's more than that actually, but still a great idea if you don't have subway or something under you. I finally met someone in real life that has that set up and it's a bit capital intensive even after the diffing. In about half of US you need a backup heating system for real cold spells.
- throwaway742 4y ago
  I wish we would build out nuclear here in CA.
  - ed25519FUUU 4y ago
    Thankfully we were able to save Diablo. I can't believe how close we came to shutting it down.
yazaddaruvala 4y ago
I’d bet in California in 5 years the duck curves for demand will be fully decoupled from the supply curve through short term storage. It’s also very likely California’s excess generation and storage will entirely flatten the generation curve for neighboring states. I agree with the GP, we are on the precipice of an energy revolution. I look forward to see what we do with it!
throwaway742 4y ago
I've lived in California for decades and have never experienced a rolling blackout. The only times my power has gone out was because of maintenance, one particularly bad thunderstorm, and drivers crashing into the poles.
- ed25519FUUU 4y ago
  Whether or not you get a black out or a "flex alert" depends entirely on where you live. PG&E avoids cutting power to the rich people who live in the SF bay valley, and instead cuts it to the rural and outskirt areas. https://sf.curbed.com/2019/10/9/20906839/map-pge-blackout-power-outages-cities-california https://sf.curbed.com/2019/10/9/20906839/map-pge-blackout-po...
  - sagarm 4y ago
    That's because they chose to live in the wildlife-urban interface, where wildfire risks are elevated. Note the article talks about damage to power lines. The shutoffs were not related to a lack of capacity. Rural grid connection and maintenance costs are heavily subsidized by urban electricity users already. These subsidies should be applied for rather than being hidden so it's clear to everyone they exist.
  - throwaway742 4y ago
    I live in a very impoverished area so it is definitely not a rich/poor thing.
mrj 4y ago
No rolling blackouts here. And prices have been falling. Most plans around here are paying $0.10496. I'm on a time schedule and do most of my charging at $0.07688. The price per kWh has been consistently falling. I think the GP is right, energy is changing. https://cleanpoweralliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Clean-Power-Alliance-Residential-Rates-Effective-July-1-2022-updated-October-1-2022.pdf https://cleanpoweralliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Cl...
- ed25519FUUU 4y ago
  That's my point. We're told (wholesale) prices are falling, but retail prices are rising everywhere[1]. Especially in CA where they're skyrocketing compared to the national average[2]. That's why they don't "realize it", because so far it has had ZERO positive impact on them. 1. https://www.statista.com/statistics/183700/us-average-retail-electricity-price-since-1990/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/183700/us-average-retail... 2. https://www.pleasantonweekly.com/blogs/p/2022/03/06/when-will-our-electricity-rates-go-down https://www.pleasantonweekly.com/blogs/p/2022/03/06/when-wil...
sagarm 4y ago
No blackouts here. Rural blackouts are more common in high wind situations to mitigate wildfire risk. It's just the reality of living in the WUF. 75% of electricity costs in California come from the grid, not generation. Grid costs recently are up due to wildfire mitigation for power to rural communities.

wpm 4y ago

IL also sells off something like 250MW of excess power but it’s just like that all the time since it’s all coming from our nuclear plants.

nine_k 4y ago
250 MW of constantly available power from a reactor may be more valuable than 600 MW during sunshine that goes to 0 MW during night time. Solar will become vastly more valuable once enough electrical storage capacity goes online.
- euroderf 4y ago
  And after electrical storage capacity is solved, let's work on heat storage capacity. Do I really have to spend ten grand digging up my yard ?
  - nine_k 4y ago
    Like, well, home insulation and heat-exchanging ventilation?
    - euroderf 4y ago
      In Scandinavia the summers provide loooong days. When it's sunny, there is SUCH a surplus of heat that could (in principle) be captured for wintertime use.
  - pxmpxm 4y ago
    I think it's more than that actually, but still a great idea if you don't have subway or something under you. I finally met someone in real life that has that set up and it's a bit capital intensive even after the diffing. In about half of US you need a backup heating system for real cold spells.
throwaway742 4y ago
I wish we would build out nuclear here in CA.
- ed25519FUUU 4y ago
  Thankfully we were able to save Diablo. I can't believe how close we came to shutting it down.

yazaddaruvala 4y ago

I’d bet in California in 5 years the duck curves for demand will be fully decoupled from the supply curve through short term storage. It’s also very likely California’s excess generation and storage will entirely flatten the generation curve for neighboring states. I agree with the GP, we are on the precipice of an energy revolution. I look forward to see what we do with it!

throwaway742 4y ago

I've lived in California for decades and have never experienced a rolling blackout. The only times my power has gone out was because of maintenance, one particularly bad thunderstorm, and drivers crashing into the poles.

ed25519FUUU 4y ago
Whether or not you get a black out or a "flex alert" depends entirely on where you live. PG&E avoids cutting power to the rich people who live in the SF bay valley, and instead cuts it to the rural and outskirt areas. https://sf.curbed.com/2019/10/9/20906839/map-pge-blackout-power-outages-cities-california https://sf.curbed.com/2019/10/9/20906839/map-pge-blackout-po...
- sagarm 4y ago
  That's because they chose to live in the wildlife-urban interface, where wildfire risks are elevated. Note the article talks about damage to power lines. The shutoffs were not related to a lack of capacity. Rural grid connection and maintenance costs are heavily subsidized by urban electricity users already. These subsidies should be applied for rather than being hidden so it's clear to everyone they exist.
- throwaway742 4y ago
  I live in a very impoverished area so it is definitely not a rich/poor thing.

mrj 4y ago

No rolling blackouts here. And prices have been falling. Most plans around here are paying $0.10496. I'm on a time schedule and do most of my charging at $0.07688. The price per kWh has been consistently falling. I think the GP is right, energy is changing. https://cleanpoweralliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Clean-Power-Alliance-Residential-Rates-Effective-July-1-2022-updated-October-1-2022.pdf https://cleanpoweralliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Cl...

ed25519FUUU 4y ago
That's my point. We're told (wholesale) prices are falling, but retail prices are rising everywhere[1]. Especially in CA where they're skyrocketing compared to the national average[2]. That's why they don't "realize it", because so far it has had ZERO positive impact on them. 1. https://www.statista.com/statistics/183700/us-average-retail-electricity-price-since-1990/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/183700/us-average-retail... 2. https://www.pleasantonweekly.com/blogs/p/2022/03/06/when-will-our-electricity-rates-go-down https://www.pleasantonweekly.com/blogs/p/2022/03/06/when-wil...

sagarm 4y ago

No blackouts here. Rural blackouts are more common in high wind situations to mitigate wildfire risk. It's just the reality of living in the WUF. 75% of electricity costs in California come from the grid, not generation. Grid costs recently are up due to wildfire mitigation for power to rural communities.