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I used to be a tip supporter. Not anymore with the amount of deceptive BS that's happened in the last 10 years. I am very close to deciding not to tip, ever. I

by dcow 4y ago

I used to be a tip supporter. Not anymore with the amount of deceptive BS that's happened in the last 10 years. I am very close to deciding not to tip, ever. I have no moral qualms with this I've decided. If everyone got onboard it would all work out. Can we just make it illegal to pay below minimum wage even for service work already? Until then, I have a rule: I only tip when someone is working outside of regular working hours to act as my servant. That's like evening dinner service where someone is actually waiting my table. Sometimes I'll tip at lunch for pleasant service even though it breaks my rule because I'm human. And sometimes a dollar or two for coffee early in the morning or bar service at night out of habit. I also have "tip bands" structured such that I tip at least 10% when de-facto expected. I tip $5 up to a $50 ticket, and $10 up to a $100 ticket, on the pre-tax and pre-other-fees price. My logic here is that if restaurants are supplementing wages with baked in fees, those fees should be deducted from the tip I'd otherwise have been expected to pay. So a standard 15% less a 4% surcharge post tax becomes 10% additional (tip). In any case, things average out such that I over-tip anyway, sigh. I guess my latter point here is that I'm still made to feel guilty when tipping at least 10% because of how establishments suggest you should be considering 20%, 25% and 30% gratuities on top of all the fees they slip in at the end and taxes. It leaves me disillusioned with the entire notion.

eurleif 4y ago
>Can we just make it illegal to pay below minimum wage even for service work already? Note that the sum of wage + tips must reach the minimum wage, or else the employer is required to make up the difference. It's a common misconception that tipped workers can earn less, in total, than minimum wage.
- ents 4y ago
  That is the law. That law is generally not followed in the real world.
  - eurleif 4y ago
    The comment I replied to said there should be a law. I pointed out that there already is. If we're talking about whether the law is sometimes violated, that's a whole different discussion. Also, I don't see any reason why violating the law in that way should be any more common than violating it by paying non-tipped workers less than minimum wage. Either one would require the same degree, and same kind, of fraud. So tipped workers should be no worse off in practice than non-tipped workers.
    - LightHugger 4y ago
      What the person you replied to suggested and what you say exist are different things in reality. Tips plus the rest covered by the employer simply does not mean minimum wage. So no, there is not a law, you have no motivation for pretending there is, so why are you?
- jimkleiber 4y ago
  Yes, and I'm curious to learn more about how well employers comply with it by making up the difference, my gut says they probably don't comply very well. In just a quick look, I found this: > 5. Wage theft is particularly acute in food and drink service, and restaurants across the country have been found to be in violation of wage and hour laws. It is true that the law requires restaurants to ensure that tipped workers receive at least the regular minimum wage when their tips are included, but the reality is that huge numbers of restaurants—helped by too-weak enforcement efforts—ignore these requirements. In investigations of over 9,000 restaurants, the U.S. Department of Labor (DOL) found that 84 percent of investigated restaurants were in violation of wage and hour laws, including nearly 1,200 violations of the requirement to bring tipped workers’ wages up to the minimum wage. Among the restaurants that were investigated, tipped workers were cheated out of nearly $5.5 million. Workers in the food and drink service industries are more likely to suffer minimum wage violations than workers in other industries. [0] EDIT: Apparently the DOL study was focused on 2010-12, so not sure what the newest compliance looks like [1]. [0]: https://www.epi.org/blog/seven-facts-about-tipped-workers-and-the-tipped-minimum-wage/ https://www.epi.org/blog/seven-facts-about-tipped-workers-an... [1]: https://files.epi.org/2014/EPI-CWED-BP379.pdf https://files.epi.org/2014/EPI-CWED-BP379.pdf
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > Note that the sum of wage + tips must reach the minimum wage, or else the employer is required to make up the difference. But tips are also often used as a performance evaluation metric, and falling low enough that the employer has to make it up often leads to termination, so, where this is possible (as it most obviously is where cash tips are involved) its not uncommon for employees to be incentivized to artificially inflate tips. Eliminating the lower tipped based minimum wage (which, when followed, means that tips actually go to the employer, not the tipped employee, to a point) means that, even where this practice and pressure exists, it doesn’t leas to suppressing wages below the general mininum.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
vore 4y ago
I don't understand this logic: you know that waitstaff in restaurants are paid less than minimum wage because they make it up in tips, so you choose not to tip them which actively contributes to them making less than minimum wage? The system is shitty but you're okay with screwing over the individuals who are forced to participate in the system with "no moral qualms"?
- dd36 4y ago
  They’d have to quit or the restaurant pay better.
- dcow 4y ago
  No I just said I tip at least 10% at full service restaurants because I understand the situation, but I'd rather not anymore.
  - vore 4y ago
    I think you should include that in your original comment, because it gave me a very different impression!
    - dcow 4y ago
      It's in the last paragraph where I describe my practice of tipping in bands. Flat rate numbers roughly related to the amount of the bill.
  - soupfordummies 4y ago
    (Assuming you're in the US) That's still kind of a dick move, man... That's the social contract -- you go to a full service restaurant, you tip 20% of the bill. I can understand for things like even retail and other non-traditional PoS stuff but for full service dining, this isn't new. If you want to opt out of participating in the whole tip structure there, then you probably should opt out of participating in full service dining as well.
    - 4y ago
usui 4y ago
This is so... complicated... Reading all of the rules you wrote makes me feel the same way as you: > It leaves me disillusioned with the entire notion.

by dcow 4y ago

eurleif 4y ago

>Can we just make it illegal to pay below minimum wage even for service work already? Note that the sum of wage + tips must reach the minimum wage, or else the employer is required to make up the difference. It's a common misconception that tipped workers can earn less, in total, than minimum wage.

ents 4y ago
That is the law. That law is generally not followed in the real world.
- eurleif 4y ago
  The comment I replied to said there should be a law. I pointed out that there already is. If we're talking about whether the law is sometimes violated, that's a whole different discussion. Also, I don't see any reason why violating the law in that way should be any more common than violating it by paying non-tipped workers less than minimum wage. Either one would require the same degree, and same kind, of fraud. So tipped workers should be no worse off in practice than non-tipped workers.
  - LightHugger 4y ago
    What the person you replied to suggested and what you say exist are different things in reality. Tips plus the rest covered by the employer simply does not mean minimum wage. So no, there is not a law, you have no motivation for pretending there is, so why are you?
jimkleiber 4y ago
Yes, and I'm curious to learn more about how well employers comply with it by making up the difference, my gut says they probably don't comply very well. In just a quick look, I found this: > 5. Wage theft is particularly acute in food and drink service, and restaurants across the country have been found to be in violation of wage and hour laws. It is true that the law requires restaurants to ensure that tipped workers receive at least the regular minimum wage when their tips are included, but the reality is that huge numbers of restaurants—helped by too-weak enforcement efforts—ignore these requirements. In investigations of over 9,000 restaurants, the U.S. Department of Labor (DOL) found that 84 percent of investigated restaurants were in violation of wage and hour laws, including nearly 1,200 violations of the requirement to bring tipped workers’ wages up to the minimum wage. Among the restaurants that were investigated, tipped workers were cheated out of nearly $5.5 million. Workers in the food and drink service industries are more likely to suffer minimum wage violations than workers in other industries. [0] EDIT: Apparently the DOL study was focused on 2010-12, so not sure what the newest compliance looks like [1]. [0]: https://www.epi.org/blog/seven-facts-about-tipped-workers-and-the-tipped-minimum-wage/ https://www.epi.org/blog/seven-facts-about-tipped-workers-an... [1]: https://files.epi.org/2014/EPI-CWED-BP379.pdf https://files.epi.org/2014/EPI-CWED-BP379.pdf
dragonwriter 4y ago
> Note that the sum of wage + tips must reach the minimum wage, or else the employer is required to make up the difference. But tips are also often used as a performance evaluation metric, and falling low enough that the employer has to make it up often leads to termination, so, where this is possible (as it most obviously is where cash tips are involved) its not uncommon for employees to be incentivized to artificially inflate tips. Eliminating the lower tipped based minimum wage (which, when followed, means that tips actually go to the employer, not the tipped employee, to a point) means that, even where this practice and pressure exists, it doesn’t leas to suppressing wages below the general mininum.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

vore 4y ago

I don't understand this logic: you know that waitstaff in restaurants are paid less than minimum wage because they make it up in tips, so you choose not to tip them which actively contributes to them making less than minimum wage? The system is shitty but you're okay with screwing over the individuals who are forced to participate in the system with "no moral qualms"?

dd36 4y ago
They’d have to quit or the restaurant pay better.
dcow 4y ago
No I just said I tip at least 10% at full service restaurants because I understand the situation, but I'd rather not anymore.
- vore 4y ago
  I think you should include that in your original comment, because it gave me a very different impression!
  - dcow 4y ago
    It's in the last paragraph where I describe my practice of tipping in bands. Flat rate numbers roughly related to the amount of the bill.
- soupfordummies 4y ago
  (Assuming you're in the US) That's still kind of a dick move, man... That's the social contract -- you go to a full service restaurant, you tip 20% of the bill. I can understand for things like even retail and other non-traditional PoS stuff but for full service dining, this isn't new. If you want to opt out of participating in the whole tip structure there, then you probably should opt out of participating in full service dining as well.
  - 4y ago

usui 4y ago

This is so... complicated... Reading all of the rules you wrote makes me feel the same way as you: > It leaves me disillusioned with the entire notion.