4 ms·

American railroads versus most other countries’ railroads are a great counter example to the efficient private business hypothesis.

otikik 4y ago
And healthcare and education
midoridensha 4y ago
Here in Japan, all the railroads are privately-owned, including the subway systems.
- lmm 4y ago
  Not really. Most are nominally private (although both the big Tokyo subways aren't - Toei, the clue is in the name), but have both a large proportion of their shares owned by governments (local and national), and deep ties to a large conglomerate (keiretsu) that in turn owns a lot of businesses in the relevant area and has deep ties into the political system.
  - midoridensha 4y ago
    Yeah, the way "private"-ly owned infrastructure here is probably rather different than just selling stuff to foreign companies. I was just reading about the private toll roads in Japan, but it seems they're only operated and maintained by private companies, while the ownership is retained by corporations that are owned by the government (sort of like MTA in NYC).
ericd 4y ago
From what I've heard, the American freight rail system is actually excellent? It's just that passenger service isn't prioritized, so the quality isn't great?
- TaylorAlexander 4y ago
  I've heard it is a dissolving house of cards that barely functions, absolutely refuses to make long term investments in things like electrification, and it focuses on scraping out every short term gain possible regardless of long term consequences. And yeah also passenger service gets absolutely ruined by their policies. All around it sounds like a dumpster fire from what I have heard. Perhaps I am misinformed.
  - trafficante 4y ago
    > Perhaps I am misinformed. No, but also yes. The grandparent commenter is correct in saying 99.99% of US rail is designed entirely around moving freight. And I’d usually agree it does it well, but the system seems to be breaking down fairly publicly of late. Regardless, it’s essentially an apples to oranges comparison vs European/Asian passenger rail - a (very poor) reverse analogy would be to fault hyper regional business airports for not facilitating giant cargo planes. Everything else you mentioned is basically correct but a large portion of the dysfunction is due to the specific need to lay new rail to get around the freight priority system that dominates essentially all of our existing rail lines. States are trying to roll out modern dedicated passenger lines but the projects keep getting derailed (pun intended) by politicians. The Acela dedicated passenger line in the Northeast is (possibly) the only place in the country where you can make a reasonable comparison to the rest of the world. And having ridden both Acela Express and Eurostar in the past decade, my opinion is that Eurostar is a very clear winner but not quite as obscenely as most people would expect. Eg: The Amtrak cars are MUCH comfier but the train runs at approximately half the speed of Eurostar (Acela is supposedly capable of 135mph but it only hit 125ish when I rode - I clocked an avg ~90mph vs avg ~180mph on Eurostar iirc). No freight priority issues, etc. Still extremely last gen feeling, but more in a “this can be fixed” way and less in the “well this is utterly hopeless” like the rest of the country.
- HWR_14 4y ago
  US passenger service is theoretically and legally supposed to be prioritized over freight. Unfortunately this requires Amtrak to sue to enforce their rights, and that seems politically a non-starter.
whywhywhywhy 4y ago
Americas railways are not bad because of privatization, isn’t it the case that people who profit from cars have lobbied so strong against governments allowing any expansion. Wouldn’t even call what you have a rail network at all, let alone a bad private rail network. Like what you have doesn’t even make sense privatized

otikik 4y ago

And healthcare and education

midoridensha 4y ago

Here in Japan, all the railroads are privately-owned, including the subway systems.

lmm 4y ago
Not really. Most are nominally private (although both the big Tokyo subways aren't - Toei, the clue is in the name), but have both a large proportion of their shares owned by governments (local and national), and deep ties to a large conglomerate (keiretsu) that in turn owns a lot of businesses in the relevant area and has deep ties into the political system.
- midoridensha 4y ago
  Yeah, the way "private"-ly owned infrastructure here is probably rather different than just selling stuff to foreign companies. I was just reading about the private toll roads in Japan, but it seems they're only operated and maintained by private companies, while the ownership is retained by corporations that are owned by the government (sort of like MTA in NYC).

ericd 4y ago

From what I've heard, the American freight rail system is actually excellent? It's just that passenger service isn't prioritized, so the quality isn't great?

TaylorAlexander 4y ago
I've heard it is a dissolving house of cards that barely functions, absolutely refuses to make long term investments in things like electrification, and it focuses on scraping out every short term gain possible regardless of long term consequences. And yeah also passenger service gets absolutely ruined by their policies. All around it sounds like a dumpster fire from what I have heard. Perhaps I am misinformed.
- trafficante 4y ago
  > Perhaps I am misinformed. No, but also yes. The grandparent commenter is correct in saying 99.99% of US rail is designed entirely around moving freight. And I’d usually agree it does it well, but the system seems to be breaking down fairly publicly of late. Regardless, it’s essentially an apples to oranges comparison vs European/Asian passenger rail - a (very poor) reverse analogy would be to fault hyper regional business airports for not facilitating giant cargo planes. Everything else you mentioned is basically correct but a large portion of the dysfunction is due to the specific need to lay new rail to get around the freight priority system that dominates essentially all of our existing rail lines. States are trying to roll out modern dedicated passenger lines but the projects keep getting derailed (pun intended) by politicians. The Acela dedicated passenger line in the Northeast is (possibly) the only place in the country where you can make a reasonable comparison to the rest of the world. And having ridden both Acela Express and Eurostar in the past decade, my opinion is that Eurostar is a very clear winner but not quite as obscenely as most people would expect. Eg: The Amtrak cars are MUCH comfier but the train runs at approximately half the speed of Eurostar (Acela is supposedly capable of 135mph but it only hit 125ish when I rode - I clocked an avg ~90mph vs avg ~180mph on Eurostar iirc). No freight priority issues, etc. Still extremely last gen feeling, but more in a “this can be fixed” way and less in the “well this is utterly hopeless” like the rest of the country.
HWR_14 4y ago
US passenger service is theoretically and legally supposed to be prioritized over freight. Unfortunately this requires Amtrak to sue to enforce their rights, and that seems politically a non-starter.

whywhywhywhy 4y ago

Americas railways are not bad because of privatization, isn’t it the case that people who profit from cars have lobbied so strong against governments allowing any expansion. Wouldn’t even call what you have a rail network at all, let alone a bad private rail network. Like what you have doesn’t even make sense privatized