4 ms·

> The study involved two groups of male and female mice. One was exposed to adversity early in life by living for a week in cages with limited bedding and nesti

> The study involved two groups of male and female mice. One was exposed to adversity early in life by living for a week in cages with limited bedding and nesting material, and the other was reared in typical cages. As adults, the early adversity-experiencing male mice had little interest in sweet foods or sex cues compared to typically reared mice. In contrast, adversity-experiencing females craved rich, sweet food. It seems like mice evolved so that males who were deprived or damaged took themselves out of competition with other males by not having interest in sex and sweet foods. I suppose as a species that might make sense by cutting the losses on a damaged individual, but it is a cold logic. It is uncanny that it maps to our religious practices, where "damaged" males drop out of sexual competition and became monks (but I suppose nowadays become "incels" instead).

germinalphrase 4y ago
I’ve actually known some monks, and I’m pretty sure they would look askance at your suggestion that they became monks because they are “damaged males”.
- beedeebeedee 4y ago
  I agree, and in fact, I think early struggle can be a gift if it can be worked through. It can open up a whole new world of the mind that monks are able to cultivate that you cannot approach if you are preoccupied with interests in sex and food (and other hedonistic things).
  - hirvi74 4y ago
    > I think early struggle can be a gift if it can be worked through That is a gigantic "if." I think not having to repair one's self and, instead, using said time and resources to better one's self or to work towards one's goals would be a better gift.
    - spoiler 4y ago
      As someone who's often contemplated whether I've made it where I am in life despite or thanks to my fucked up childhood, this really hits home. It's really difficult to look at it as a gift. It feels more like a curse that has a bunch workaround protocols in place.
      - beedeebeedee 4y ago
        You and the previous commenter are right. It is inappropriate for me to call it a gift. I called it a gift because I have tried to view it as such (I also had a traumatic childhood), and because the kindest and wisest people I have known went through a tremendous amount of suffering. I have viewed trauma as a prerequisite for wisdom (and I think it is necessary), but there is obviously a lot of selection bias in my thinking. Most of the people who have been traumatized in childhood have been chewed up by the process. I did not mean to offend anyone by calling trauma a gift. In retrospect, it seems absurd of me to call something a gift that one has to work so hard to overcome to receive its benefits- and that even with hard work, there is still such a low chance of receiving them. Although this is unrelated to your comment, thinking about your comment has caused me to reevaluate my original comment. It was downvoted and I think I offended people by comparing monks to incels. I actually think it is liberating to not only understand the research in this article as relating to the drive that some people have to become monks, but also liberating to understand the drive to be a monk as relating to the feeling of being an incel. I have been lucky in that I had wise people to guide me beyond the trauma. I believe that monasteries, religion and philosophy have done that for many people too. It is my belief that the deep ambivalence and frustration that incels feel is related to the same things, but they are without the guidance that I and others have received to figure out how to process and understand their suffering. Although there is much wisdom in psychology, most therapy still seems shallow and unable to give the guidance that is needed. Our pop culture seems even worse. The solution is probably not to revive monastic culture, but I don't think our pop culture should revile incels as much as it does. They may say and do hateful things, but they are just humans suffering. I think incels need guidance as much as our pop culture does.
DiggyJohnson 4y ago
This is a shocking and ahistorical take on the reasons a person might choose to become a monk both past and present. Do you have more evidence for your assertion? Otherwise it seems like it’s based solely on a shallow contempt for religiosity - putting it as nicely as possible.
- beedeebeedee 4y ago
  I do not have contempt for religiosity. Here is some evidence for my assertion from "Tibetan Buddhism and Mass Monasticism" by Melvyn C. Goldstein: > A fourth, and extremely common, type of situation occurred when parents made a son a monk as part of a strategy for organizing their family’s human resources so as to minimize the likelihood of family fragmentation and land division in the next generation. > Poverty also was very important in motivating parents to make sons monks. Very poor Tibetans with many children had two main mechanisms for balancing their income with subsistence needs. One was making one or more sons a monk as the above mentioned case of the nomad illustrated. I have only done a quick search to find references to respond to you, but I have taken it for granted people knew that monasteries in medieval Europe as well as all around the world were places where younger sons and the children of impoverished people were sent. Primogeniture was a common practice, and it not only entailed oldest sons inheriting everything, but also younger sons frequently being abused. I can search for more references and examples if you like. Once again, I would reaffirm that just because there seems to be a biological basis for this behavior, it in no way means that there is something wrong with these people- in fact, to the contrary. The development of the mind by monks across religions is a remarkable feat and the jewel of humanity- even if it is born from struggle.
  - Dalewyn 4y ago
    When you, as head of your family, end up with multiple inheritors (read: more than one child), there is a very high chance your inheritors will fight each other, sometimes violently, for the inheritance. This is still a problem today, too. Sending the younger inheritors away to the clergy is a way of nipping such nasty family problems in the bud before they become problems. A man of the church can't inherit unless they are called back by their family. TL;DR: None of this has to do with someone's sexual fitness, and everything to do with straightening out potentially complicated family inheritances.
dmichulke 4y ago
"The selfish gene" (Dawkins, 1976) states that there is no evolution in species, only in individuals. Most of evolutionary pressure comes from members of the same species, so dropping out of that competition (genetic suicide) doesn't make sense, evolutionarily seen
- mattclarkdotnet 4y ago
  The selfish gene, as the title suggests, makes the case that there is no evolution in individuals, only genes.
  - dmichulke 4y ago
    That is also true - for a different meaning of "evolution in" which I didn't consider relevant for OP.
amoss 4y ago
It is reminiscent of the male behaviour in Universe 25 - this description reminded me of "the beautiful ones": https://www.the-scientist.com/foundations/universe-25-1968-1973-69941 https://www.the-scientist.com/foundations/universe-25-1968-1...

germinalphrase 4y ago

I’ve actually known some monks, and I’m pretty sure they would look askance at your suggestion that they became monks because they are “damaged males”.

beedeebeedee 4y ago
I agree, and in fact, I think early struggle can be a gift if it can be worked through. It can open up a whole new world of the mind that monks are able to cultivate that you cannot approach if you are preoccupied with interests in sex and food (and other hedonistic things).
- hirvi74 4y ago
  > I think early struggle can be a gift if it can be worked through That is a gigantic "if." I think not having to repair one's self and, instead, using said time and resources to better one's self or to work towards one's goals would be a better gift.
  - spoiler 4y ago
    As someone who's often contemplated whether I've made it where I am in life despite or thanks to my fucked up childhood, this really hits home. It's really difficult to look at it as a gift. It feels more like a curse that has a bunch workaround protocols in place.
    - beedeebeedee 4y ago
      You and the previous commenter are right. It is inappropriate for me to call it a gift. I called it a gift because I have tried to view it as such (I also had a traumatic childhood), and because the kindest and wisest people I have known went through a tremendous amount of suffering. I have viewed trauma as a prerequisite for wisdom (and I think it is necessary), but there is obviously a lot of selection bias in my thinking. Most of the people who have been traumatized in childhood have been chewed up by the process. I did not mean to offend anyone by calling trauma a gift. In retrospect, it seems absurd of me to call something a gift that one has to work so hard to overcome to receive its benefits- and that even with hard work, there is still such a low chance of receiving them. Although this is unrelated to your comment, thinking about your comment has caused me to reevaluate my original comment. It was downvoted and I think I offended people by comparing monks to incels. I actually think it is liberating to not only understand the research in this article as relating to the drive that some people have to become monks, but also liberating to understand the drive to be a monk as relating to the feeling of being an incel. I have been lucky in that I had wise people to guide me beyond the trauma. I believe that monasteries, religion and philosophy have done that for many people too. It is my belief that the deep ambivalence and frustration that incels feel is related to the same things, but they are without the guidance that I and others have received to figure out how to process and understand their suffering. Although there is much wisdom in psychology, most therapy still seems shallow and unable to give the guidance that is needed. Our pop culture seems even worse. The solution is probably not to revive monastic culture, but I don't think our pop culture should revile incels as much as it does. They may say and do hateful things, but they are just humans suffering. I think incels need guidance as much as our pop culture does.

DiggyJohnson 4y ago

This is a shocking and ahistorical take on the reasons a person might choose to become a monk both past and present. Do you have more evidence for your assertion? Otherwise it seems like it’s based solely on a shallow contempt for religiosity - putting it as nicely as possible.

beedeebeedee 4y ago
I do not have contempt for religiosity. Here is some evidence for my assertion from "Tibetan Buddhism and Mass Monasticism" by Melvyn C. Goldstein: > A fourth, and extremely common, type of situation occurred when parents made a son a monk as part of a strategy for organizing their family’s human resources so as to minimize the likelihood of family fragmentation and land division in the next generation. > Poverty also was very important in motivating parents to make sons monks. Very poor Tibetans with many children had two main mechanisms for balancing their income with subsistence needs. One was making one or more sons a monk as the above mentioned case of the nomad illustrated. I have only done a quick search to find references to respond to you, but I have taken it for granted people knew that monasteries in medieval Europe as well as all around the world were places where younger sons and the children of impoverished people were sent. Primogeniture was a common practice, and it not only entailed oldest sons inheriting everything, but also younger sons frequently being abused. I can search for more references and examples if you like. Once again, I would reaffirm that just because there seems to be a biological basis for this behavior, it in no way means that there is something wrong with these people- in fact, to the contrary. The development of the mind by monks across religions is a remarkable feat and the jewel of humanity- even if it is born from struggle.
- Dalewyn 4y ago
  When you, as head of your family, end up with multiple inheritors (read: more than one child), there is a very high chance your inheritors will fight each other, sometimes violently, for the inheritance. This is still a problem today, too. Sending the younger inheritors away to the clergy is a way of nipping such nasty family problems in the bud before they become problems. A man of the church can't inherit unless they are called back by their family. TL;DR: None of this has to do with someone's sexual fitness, and everything to do with straightening out potentially complicated family inheritances.

dmichulke 4y ago

"The selfish gene" (Dawkins, 1976) states that there is no evolution in species, only in individuals. Most of evolutionary pressure comes from members of the same species, so dropping out of that competition (genetic suicide) doesn't make sense, evolutionarily seen

mattclarkdotnet 4y ago
The selfish gene, as the title suggests, makes the case that there is no evolution in individuals, only genes.
- dmichulke 4y ago
  That is also true - for a different meaning of "evolution in" which I didn't consider relevant for OP.

amoss 4y ago

It is reminiscent of the male behaviour in Universe 25 - this description reminded me of "the beautiful ones": https://www.the-scientist.com/foundations/universe-25-1968-1973-69941 https://www.the-scientist.com/foundations/universe-25-1968-1...