4 ms·

It’s not misbehavior by Apple if it’s to protect against 3rd party misbehavior.

falcolas 4y ago
So why aren't we yelling at Apple for not doing this now with their USB-C powered Macbook Pro's with their 100W+ chargers and cables? Or thunderbolt cables? If there's such a huge pool of potential trouble brewing with a 20W phone, why do they even allow such maleficent third party malfeasance? /s
- arcticbull 4y ago
  They do, you can't charge a 16" M1 MacBook Pro at 140W without the MagSafe cable. The USB-C port is capped at 96W. And I believe to charge at 60W+ you need an e-marked cable. ... which is roughly what's being proposed here for iPhone. Since some Samsung devices charge at 45W and require 3A (hence e-marked) cables, one can infer Apple wants to do something similar for iPhone in the future.
  - error503 4y ago
    You don't need e-marking for 3A charging. A non e-marked cable can deliver up to 60W (3A@20V). It must route the CC pin to be able to negotiate a higher voltage (>15W 3A@5V), but this is (spec) required for all USB-C cables. Edit: I should add that it is possible for a fully complaint combination of devices to not charge at max(sink power, source power), because not all possible combinations of voltage and current may be supported. For example a 60W charger may support 20V@3A, but if the 60W sink only supports 12V charging, it needs 5A and this combination won't support 60W charging. In practice this should be rare though, it would be terrible product design.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - arcticbull 4y ago
      You're totally right, in part I confused >60W with >=60W, and as you rightly point out, non-marked cables should support 20V/3A. Re: your edit. There is this exact kind of profile incompatibility between the Leviton T5636 and the HomePod mini when two devices are plugged in. The outlet should support 30W for each receptacle, which is more than enough to provide the 18W/20W the HomePod mini requires. But for some PD profile incompatibility reason (9V/3A probably), it does not get enough power. And it is in fact terrible product design. Leviton is pointing the finger at Apple but in reality, who knows.
      - error503 4y ago
        > Which source? The charger or the device? Because either could be at fault. IMO it's harder for the source to be flexible with voltage, and especially current limit, so I'd put somewhat more blame on the sink here for not being flexible enough. Generally a sink should expect to be plugged into an 'unknown' source, so should at least make an effort to support multiple voltages. Designing a multiport power source with a shared power limit is a bit of a tricky problem.
- manuelabeledo 4y ago
  > Or thunderbolt cables? I can assure you that counterfeit Thunderbolt cables don't work at Thunderbolt speeds. Also, power delivery is defined by USB standards, not Thunderbolt.
  - yencabulator 4y ago
    Don't change the topic, you are talking about data speed when the thread is about power delivery. Here's grandparent's Apple apologism: > I'm going to contend this isn't so much subverting EU rules but rather trying to ensure that Apple won't get blamed when someone uses a cable that can't handle the power when plugged in given that there's not a good standard out there for this and no enforcement of the "ok, there's something - try this..." Two questions: 1. (Given Apple fanboy view of world, then) why can I charge an Apple laptop with a random USB-C cable? 2. Why would that logic not apply to iPhones too?
    - manuelabeledo 4y ago
      Thunderbolt doesn't add power delivery, USB does. They are two different protocols, and you mentioned Thunderbolt. > (Given Apple fanboy view of world, then) why can I charge an Apple laptop with a random USB-C cable? Not that I appreciate the tone here, but yes, you could charge an Apple laptop with what you would call "random" USB-C cable, as long as it delivers the necessary wattage. That is not the issue at hand, though. > Why would that logic not apply to iPhones too? It could. But there are orders of magnitude more phones than laptops, and laptop users tend to use, well, their laptop chargers for the most part. Still, I have seen one or two laptop motherboards essentially melted, because they were overdrawing power. By the way, I never argued that Apple should create a new standard, or a new certification program. What I originally said was that I wish that Apple would prevent cables that are not PD compliant from working with their devices, because USB-IF sucks at enforcing this.
- onphonenow 4y ago
  Premium brands like apple and Samsung already do have various restrictions and limits if things haven’t been authenticated- cables, they’ve done warnings around batteries and likely to expand - made for iPhone has been around forever
widowlark 4y ago
enjoy your user protection for 3x the cost
- comfypotato 4y ago
  Yes: I can invest more in a device and get a better product, Apple or otherwise. 3x? Lol, get out of here with your bullshit.
- joseftexas 4y ago
  Let them be. I have seen a grandpa sufferring for 10 years on iPhone (he bought new one every 2 years). He just upgraded to S23u and very happy with it. His wife still sticks to i13pm. Some just want burn thru their cash because they believe it is worth it. Some didn't know. We can only help the later group by informing. The former group won't bulge even if the realized it. It is human nature.

So why aren't we yelling at Apple for not doing this now with their USB-C powered Macbook Pro's with their 100W+ chargers and cables? Or thunderbolt cables? If there's such a huge pool of potential trouble brewing with a 20W phone, why do they even allow such maleficent third party malfeasance? /s

arcticbull 4y ago
They do, you can't charge a 16" M1 MacBook Pro at 140W without the MagSafe cable. The USB-C port is capped at 96W. And I believe to charge at 60W+ you need an e-marked cable. ... which is roughly what's being proposed here for iPhone. Since some Samsung devices charge at 45W and require 3A (hence e-marked) cables, one can infer Apple wants to do something similar for iPhone in the future.
- error503 4y ago
  You don't need e-marking for 3A charging. A non e-marked cable can deliver up to 60W (3A@20V). It must route the CC pin to be able to negotiate a higher voltage (>15W 3A@5V), but this is (spec) required for all USB-C cables. Edit: I should add that it is possible for a fully complaint combination of devices to not charge at max(sink power, source power), because not all possible combinations of voltage and current may be supported. For example a 60W charger may support 20V@3A, but if the 60W sink only supports 12V charging, it needs 5A and this combination won't support 60W charging. In practice this should be rare though, it would be terrible product design.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - arcticbull 4y ago
    You're totally right, in part I confused >60W with >=60W, and as you rightly point out, non-marked cables should support 20V/3A. Re: your edit. There is this exact kind of profile incompatibility between the Leviton T5636 and the HomePod mini when two devices are plugged in. The outlet should support 30W for each receptacle, which is more than enough to provide the 18W/20W the HomePod mini requires. But for some PD profile incompatibility reason (9V/3A probably), it does not get enough power. And it is in fact terrible product design. Leviton is pointing the finger at Apple but in reality, who knows.
    - error503 4y ago
      > Which source? The charger or the device? Because either could be at fault. IMO it's harder for the source to be flexible with voltage, and especially current limit, so I'd put somewhat more blame on the sink here for not being flexible enough. Generally a sink should expect to be plugged into an 'unknown' source, so should at least make an effort to support multiple voltages. Designing a multiport power source with a shared power limit is a bit of a tricky problem.
manuelabeledo 4y ago
> Or thunderbolt cables? I can assure you that counterfeit Thunderbolt cables don't work at Thunderbolt speeds. Also, power delivery is defined by USB standards, not Thunderbolt.
- yencabulator 4y ago
  Don't change the topic, you are talking about data speed when the thread is about power delivery. Here's grandparent's Apple apologism: > I'm going to contend this isn't so much subverting EU rules but rather trying to ensure that Apple won't get blamed when someone uses a cable that can't handle the power when plugged in given that there's not a good standard out there for this and no enforcement of the "ok, there's something - try this..." Two questions: 1. (Given Apple fanboy view of world, then) why can I charge an Apple laptop with a random USB-C cable? 2. Why would that logic not apply to iPhones too?
  - manuelabeledo 4y ago
    Thunderbolt doesn't add power delivery, USB does. They are two different protocols, and you mentioned Thunderbolt. > (Given Apple fanboy view of world, then) why can I charge an Apple laptop with a random USB-C cable? Not that I appreciate the tone here, but yes, you could charge an Apple laptop with what you would call "random" USB-C cable, as long as it delivers the necessary wattage. That is not the issue at hand, though. > Why would that logic not apply to iPhones too? It could. But there are orders of magnitude more phones than laptops, and laptop users tend to use, well, their laptop chargers for the most part. Still, I have seen one or two laptop motherboards essentially melted, because they were overdrawing power. By the way, I never argued that Apple should create a new standard, or a new certification program. What I originally said was that I wish that Apple would prevent cables that are not PD compliant from working with their devices, because USB-IF sucks at enforcing this.
onphonenow 4y ago
Premium brands like apple and Samsung already do have various restrictions and limits if things haven’t been authenticated- cables, they’ve done warnings around batteries and likely to expand - made for iPhone has been around forever

widowlark 4y ago

enjoy your user protection for 3x the cost

comfypotato 4y ago
Yes: I can invest more in a device and get a better product, Apple or otherwise. 3x? Lol, get out of here with your bullshit.
joseftexas 4y ago
Let them be. I have seen a grandpa sufferring for 10 years on iPhone (he bought new one every 2 years). He just upgraded to S23u and very happy with it. His wife still sticks to i13pm. Some just want burn thru their cash because they believe it is worth it. Some didn't know. We can only help the later group by informing. The former group won't bulge even if the realized it. It is human nature.