10 ms·

> When there's no incentive for the teachers and schools to get kids to grade level, they aren't. There are already extensive punishments for failure on this f

> When there's no incentive for the teachers and schools to get kids to grade level, they aren't. There are already extensive punishments for failure on this front, and it's a huge part of what schools' attention and focus go toward, especially post-NCLB.

WalterBright 4y ago
No, there isn't punishment. Teacher pay is entirely based on years of service and what degree they have. Achievement of their students has no affect on it. Teachers can't even be fired. See "Waiting for Superman". (Well, they can be fired, but only for things that have nothing to do with teaching.)
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  I'm going to be blunt, for the sake of bystanders, because I think HN can suffer sometimes on non-tech topics when we try to all be excessively-nice and it gets hard to sort out what's true because the confidently-wrong and confidently-right all look the same: this is clearly very much not a topic you have expertise on or have studied very deeply, and you're wrong about a lot of it. > No, there isn't punishment. Simply wrong. > Achievement of their students has no affect on it. Teachers can't even be fired. > (Well, they can be fired, but only for things that have nothing to do with teaching.) Wrong, even with the modification. > Teacher pay is entirely based on years of service and what degree they have. Achievement of their students has no affect on it. This part's true as far as pay goes, short of firing (which, yes, happens). Student achievement, however, can absolutely have an effect on quality of work-life—which courses a teacher is assigned or allowed to choose (this is huge for a lot of teachers), grade- or subject-level leadership positions that can effectively afford greater freedom in the classroom, and on career and pay advancement opportunities. In teaching, career advancement means "leaving the classroom" in practically all cases, which is a real problem, but it doesn't necessarily mean shifting to admin—it can mean moving into curriculum design, subject-area coaching, or other specialist roles that still work closely with students and teachers. > See "Waiting for Superman". Yeah, I've seen it.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    > which, yes, happens At extremely low rates compared to other professions. It's effectively "can't be fired", unless the teacher has an affair with a student or something like that. > career advancement means "leaving the classroom" in practically all cases Having the reward for good teaching being leaving teaching is not a good riposte for my proposal. I expect that a cash bonus for meeting grade level will incentivize the more competent and confident teachers to want to teach classes with the harder cases in them, so they can collect more bonuses. The core idea, obviously, is to pay for the results you want. Like a salesman. They get a (low) base salary + commissions on sales. It's in common use because it works. For the good salesmen, it's the path to riches.

WalterBright 4y ago

No, there isn't punishment. Teacher pay is entirely based on years of service and what degree they have. Achievement of their students has no affect on it. Teachers can't even be fired. See "Waiting for Superman". (Well, they can be fired, but only for things that have nothing to do with teaching.)

yamtaddle 4y ago
I'm going to be blunt, for the sake of bystanders, because I think HN can suffer sometimes on non-tech topics when we try to all be excessively-nice and it gets hard to sort out what's true because the confidently-wrong and confidently-right all look the same: this is clearly very much not a topic you have expertise on or have studied very deeply, and you're wrong about a lot of it. > No, there isn't punishment. Simply wrong. > Achievement of their students has no affect on it. Teachers can't even be fired. > (Well, they can be fired, but only for things that have nothing to do with teaching.) Wrong, even with the modification. > Teacher pay is entirely based on years of service and what degree they have. Achievement of their students has no affect on it. This part's true as far as pay goes, short of firing (which, yes, happens). Student achievement, however, can absolutely have an effect on quality of work-life—which courses a teacher is assigned or allowed to choose (this is huge for a lot of teachers), grade- or subject-level leadership positions that can effectively afford greater freedom in the classroom, and on career and pay advancement opportunities. In teaching, career advancement means "leaving the classroom" in practically all cases, which is a real problem, but it doesn't necessarily mean shifting to admin—it can mean moving into curriculum design, subject-area coaching, or other specialist roles that still work closely with students and teachers. > See "Waiting for Superman". Yeah, I've seen it.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  > which, yes, happens At extremely low rates compared to other professions. It's effectively "can't be fired", unless the teacher has an affair with a student or something like that. > career advancement means "leaving the classroom" in practically all cases Having the reward for good teaching being leaving teaching is not a good riposte for my proposal. I expect that a cash bonus for meeting grade level will incentivize the more competent and confident teachers to want to teach classes with the harder cases in them, so they can collect more bonuses. The core idea, obviously, is to pay for the results you want. Like a salesman. They get a (low) base salary + commissions on sales. It's in common use because it works. For the good salesmen, it's the path to riches.