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Different countries in Europe can set different road rules, though they cannot discriminate by country. If other EU countries wished to play hardball, they cou

Different countries in Europe can set different road rules, though they cannot discriminate by country. If other EU countries wished to play hardball, they could always do something like setting a 5 km/h speed limit for any (fossil) internal combustion car registered in the EU after 2035. Not many people in Germany would buy a car that is effectively restricted to Germany, and none would be sold anywhere else in the EU, so no mainstream manufacturer would bother with type approval.

TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
Well, except whole Eastern and Southern Europe, where BEV are unaffordable So from whole EU you are left with France, Austria and Benelux.
- dmitriid 4y ago
  BEVs are unaffordable pretty much everywhere (if there are no government subsidies). Every single BEV model seems to be 20-50% more expensive than its ICE counterpart. And the "cheap" ones are something like Renault Tweezy, useless to most people.
  - onethought 4y ago
    Total cost of ownership is reduced significantly with BEVs Government subsidies exist for oil and ice vehicles as well. I think if you subtracted all subsidies ICE must be far more expensive because oil infrastructure is obviously way less efficient.
    - TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
      > Government subsidies exist for oil and ice vehicles as well. Maybe in USA there are subsidies on gas. Come to EU, 50% tax on gas, no subsidies.
      - onethought 4y ago
        So that price you pay covers it’s extraction, refinement and whole sale purchase and transportation? You sure that isn’t subsidised somewhere along the line?
        hexo 4y ago
        Yes it does and they do brutally profit from it.
        onethought 4y ago
        Oh I guess all this news of a climate problem is just fud, because it was already priced into the oil. My mistake.
    - numbers_guy 4y ago
      Electricity is very expensive here too.
    - dmitriid 4y ago
      > Total cost of ownership is reduced significantly with BEVs Is it? With the electricity prices what they are and sparse infrastructure I doubt BEVs have a lower cost of ownership. At least in Europe. > oil infrastructure is obviously way less efficient Not sure it's obvious. If anything, oil infra has been optimized to be as cost effective as possible. Remember Deepwater Horizon? They were extracting oil from 10 km under water still at competitive prices.
      - onethought 4y ago
        Right, drilling oil from the ocean, then shipping it to a refinery then driving it to a station then putting it in your car is some how more efficient than a solar panel running electricity through an inverter into your car.
        dmitriid 4y ago
        You'd be surprised. Efficiency is rarely about how many steps it takes to get there. And even taking into account all the steps that you call inefficient, ICE cars are still 20-50% cheaper to buy. And with electricity prices what they are ICE cars are probably the same, or even cheaper, to run.
sandworm101 4y ago
>> Not many people in Germany would buy a car that is effectively restricted to Germany There has to be a joke here about EVs not having the range to leave Germany anyway. Something like "they closed the boarders but nobody noticed as there weren't any charging ports within 100km of them".
- mhandley 4y ago
  Probably won't be long before it's not economical to stock petrol at many petrol stations in Norway (diesel will likely last longer due to truck use). By 2035, Norway won't be the only place. How long before people have range anxiety when driving petrol cars? Edit, because I can't reply further: perhaps this won't at first be a problem on long journeys, but if you live in a small town and the nearest petrol is 100km away from where you live, you start to have to plan your daily driving to factor in a long detour occasionally. We're really used to having fuel available everywhere. This will change, the only question is when.
  - sandworm101 4y ago
    Considering most conventional cars can today drive half way across most European countries on a single tank, range anxiety won't be an issue for a long while.
  - wil421 4y ago
    Google says the average age for cars in Norway is 10 years. It will be along time before petrol stations close. If banning ICEs fails because of adoption expect the black market to take care of it. Or people will import older ICEs from abroad using loopholes.
- agilob 4y ago
  That's my feelings here as well. This winter I had -17'C for 5 nights in a row, I talked to a guy who owns a 2020 Tesla, he complained his battery storage could not go above 21% after whole night of charging. That wasn't enough range to go to his niece birthday. Does banning diesel and petrol stop BEV manufacturers having incentives to improve? They will simply get the market for free and own it without having to improve batteries, charging speed and range.
deleted 4y ago
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TheLoafOfBread 4y ago

Well, except whole Eastern and Southern Europe, where BEV are unaffordable So from whole EU you are left with France, Austria and Benelux.

dmitriid 4y ago
BEVs are unaffordable pretty much everywhere (if there are no government subsidies). Every single BEV model seems to be 20-50% more expensive than its ICE counterpart. And the "cheap" ones are something like Renault Tweezy, useless to most people.
- onethought 4y ago
  Total cost of ownership is reduced significantly with BEVs Government subsidies exist for oil and ice vehicles as well. I think if you subtracted all subsidies ICE must be far more expensive because oil infrastructure is obviously way less efficient.
  - TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
    > Government subsidies exist for oil and ice vehicles as well. Maybe in USA there are subsidies on gas. Come to EU, 50% tax on gas, no subsidies.
    - onethought 4y ago
      So that price you pay covers it’s extraction, refinement and whole sale purchase and transportation? You sure that isn’t subsidised somewhere along the line?
      - hexo 4y ago
        Yes it does and they do brutally profit from it.
        onethought 4y ago
        Oh I guess all this news of a climate problem is just fud, because it was already priced into the oil. My mistake.
  - numbers_guy 4y ago
    Electricity is very expensive here too.
  - dmitriid 4y ago
    > Total cost of ownership is reduced significantly with BEVs Is it? With the electricity prices what they are and sparse infrastructure I doubt BEVs have a lower cost of ownership. At least in Europe. > oil infrastructure is obviously way less efficient Not sure it's obvious. If anything, oil infra has been optimized to be as cost effective as possible. Remember Deepwater Horizon? They were extracting oil from 10 km under water still at competitive prices.
    - onethought 4y ago
      Right, drilling oil from the ocean, then shipping it to a refinery then driving it to a station then putting it in your car is some how more efficient than a solar panel running electricity through an inverter into your car.
      - dmitriid 4y ago
        You'd be surprised. Efficiency is rarely about how many steps it takes to get there. And even taking into account all the steps that you call inefficient, ICE cars are still 20-50% cheaper to buy. And with electricity prices what they are ICE cars are probably the same, or even cheaper, to run.

sandworm101 4y ago

>> Not many people in Germany would buy a car that is effectively restricted to Germany There has to be a joke here about EVs not having the range to leave Germany anyway. Something like "they closed the boarders but nobody noticed as there weren't any charging ports within 100km of them".

mhandley 4y ago
Probably won't be long before it's not economical to stock petrol at many petrol stations in Norway (diesel will likely last longer due to truck use). By 2035, Norway won't be the only place. How long before people have range anxiety when driving petrol cars? Edit, because I can't reply further: perhaps this won't at first be a problem on long journeys, but if you live in a small town and the nearest petrol is 100km away from where you live, you start to have to plan your daily driving to factor in a long detour occasionally. We're really used to having fuel available everywhere. This will change, the only question is when.
- sandworm101 4y ago
  Considering most conventional cars can today drive half way across most European countries on a single tank, range anxiety won't be an issue for a long while.
- wil421 4y ago
  Google says the average age for cars in Norway is 10 years. It will be along time before petrol stations close. If banning ICEs fails because of adoption expect the black market to take care of it. Or people will import older ICEs from abroad using loopholes.
agilob 4y ago
That's my feelings here as well. This winter I had -17'C for 5 nights in a row, I talked to a guy who owns a 2020 Tesla, he complained his battery storage could not go above 21% after whole night of charging. That wasn't enough range to go to his niece birthday. Does banning diesel and petrol stop BEV manufacturers having incentives to improve? They will simply get the market for free and own it without having to improve batteries, charging speed and range.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]