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> While this might appear to be a consumer-hostile move from Apple, there are reasons the company might want a certification process. Obviously, Apple stands to

by shagie 4y ago

> While this might appear to be a consumer-hostile move from Apple, there are reasons the company might want a certification process. Obviously, Apple stands to make some money from charging for the certified parts and technology, but consumers will also have more confidence in buying products they know are guaranteed to work seamlessly with the iPhone. > Despite all of the praise USB-C gets for its universal connector, there are a lot of problems with it too. It is nearly impossible to tell what capabilities a cable might have just by looking at it, which could potentially damage a product if connected in an unexpected way. --- https://www.zdnet.com/home-and-office/smart-office/using-the-wrong-usb-c-cable-can-damage-your-tech-heres-how-to-avoid-that/ https://www.zdnet.com/home-and-office/smart-office/using-the... > Some cables could carry 100W and handle 10Gbps, while others might be limited to 60W and 5Gbps or even 480Mbps. > The idea is to stop 100W of power from being pushed down a cable that can't handle it. This could, at worse, result in fires. > One problem with E-Mark is that it's not as widely supported as it should be. While a quality charger shouldn't try to push 60W or even 100W down an unsuitable cable, I've seen it happen. > And unless you're aware of it, you'd have no idea that it was unsafe. > Then there's the issue of cables that claim to have the E-Mark which do not have the E-Mark. Unless you have a tool that can read the E-Mark, you have to take the manufacturer's word for it. --- I'm going to contend this isn't so much subverting EU rules but rather trying to ensure that Apple won't get blamed when someone uses a cable that can't handle the power when plugged in given that there's not a good standard out there for this and no enforcement of the "ok, there's something - try this..."

znpy 4y ago
I’m pretty sure no laptop maker got blamed about some user using a third party power adapter and ruining the laptop or starting a fire. This is just bs.
JustSomeNobody 4y ago
> While a quality charger shouldn't try to push 60W or even 100W down an unsuitable cable, I've seen it happen. How is this even possible?
- LorenPechtel 4y ago
  Cheap cables may not implement the detection properly. Device says I want 100W, charger says I can give 100W, dumb cable just sits there letting them talk and doesn't say no.
  - error503 4y ago
    What you describe would be a broken charger, not a broken cable. The charger is supposed to interrogate the cable and only offer 5A if a) the cable responds and b) responds with a 5A capability.
    - LorenPechtel 4y ago
      That's what's *supposed to* happen, but some of the bad cables omit that and the charger is actually talking to the device, not the cable.
      - error503 4y ago
        Huh? That's not how the PD protocol works, it's a multidrop bus, and the device won't respond to requests addressed to the cable.
kitsunesoba 4y ago
I agree. One might ask why they haven't done the same for iPads and MacBooks, and I think the answer there is the sheer difference in volume — Apple sells many, many more iPhones than they do iPads or MacBooks, and so the number of users that are likely to fall victim to shoddy cables is much higher, especially considering the increased percentage of less-tech-savvy buying phones compared to laptops or tablets. A lot of smartphone users see no issue with buying the cheapest "WEGLOB" branded cable on Amazon because as far as they're concerned, there's no difference between that and a cable from a more reputable manufacturer.
- manuelabeledo 4y ago
  I would also think that the tolerances between phones and laptops are vastly different. For instance, I have seen one or two phone batteries violently catching fire, but laptop batteries tend to swell slowly over time before failing.
  - kitsunesoba 4y ago
    Phones and the cables used to charge them are also typically subject to far greater and more frequent abuse than laptops and their cables. Some people go through even quality charger cables like candy.
    - ericmay 4y ago
      I'd also add that I bet for at least Apple and probably other manufacturers when you buy a new laptop charger you probably buy it from the manufacturer. I know at least I wouldn't think twice about buying a new charger from Apple.
      - kitsunesoba 4y ago
        I certainly wouldn't chance a $1.5k+ MacBook on a bargain basement USB-C cable.
        4y ago
benj111 4y ago
> Then there's the issue of cables that claim to have the E-Mark And cables could also claim apple certification. Fake certification isn't an argument for certification.
- fckgw 4y ago
  Apple routinely enforces the MeFi program and if a company is faking it will get the listing removed from Amazon or elsewhere.
  - benj111 4y ago
    From eBay? AliExpress? Your local shop? I assume apple just checks the brand rather than buy the hardware, so if it's the 'correct' brand it still won't get picked up. Plus how long before we get articles on here about how apple are taking down actual certified hardware?
    - fckgw 4y ago
      > Plus how long before we get articles on here about how apple are taking down actual certified hardware? The MFi program has been around for 18 years and it hasn't been an issue yet.
amluto 4y ago
I would imagine that a phone could also check for the E-Mark and limit charging power accordingly. (Presumably this is how USB-C already works, but maybe not. Certainly something tells the power sink the current limit, but I can imagine that the source queries the cable, computes (potentially incorrectly) the limit, and tells the sink, which then blindly trusts it.
- error503 4y ago
  The 'DFP' (source) interrogates the cable, and when it advertises its capabilities to the 'UFP' (sink) it will only include what is mutually supported by the source and cable. In theory I believe the 'UFP' can also query the cable once in a contract, but not sure if this is common/ever done, I guess this capability mostly exists to inform the user if the cable they are using is insufficient.
  - amluto 4y ago
    Apple could implement that and refuse to charge quickly with an inappropriate cable. No special MFi chip needed
    - yencabulator 4y ago
      The MFi chip is "needed" for profit.
_thisdot 4y ago
Won’t Apple have already encountered this with their iPads and MacBooks? Shouldn’t the fact that Apple already makes USB C accessories and devices make this much smoother?
kelnos 4y ago
> I'm going to contend this isn't so much subverting EU rules but rather trying to ensure that Apple won't get blamed when someone uses a cable that can't handle the power when plugged in given that there's not a good standard out there for this and no enforcement of the "ok, there's something - try this..." That's just not true. The USB-IF won't certify a cable unless it can do 20V @ 3A, which is around 2x the voltage at 3A that the iPhone would even try to do. If true, this is just money-grab and spiteful behavior out of Apple, nothing more.
- droopyEyelids 4y ago
  What percent of cables coming out of China, sold on Amazon or in convenience stores/gas stations, do you believe have been certified by USB-IF?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - falcolas 4y ago
    3rd party misbehavior does not justify Apple misbehavior.
    - comfypotato 4y ago
      It’s not misbehavior by Apple if it’s to protect against 3rd party misbehavior.
      - falcolas 4y ago
        So why aren't we yelling at Apple for not doing this now with their USB-C powered Macbook Pro's with their 100W+ chargers and cables? Or thunderbolt cables? If there's such a huge pool of potential trouble brewing with a 20W phone, why do they even allow such maleficent third party malfeasance? /s
        arcticbull 4y ago
ProAm 4y ago
What are your thought on data transfer speed? Why USB 2.0 speeds unless you pay for the more expensive phone and certified cable?
- mmis1000 4y ago
  Actually... most cheap type-c wire don't even wire the super speed data line for usb3.0/3.1. You can assume there isn't so much cheap wires for usb3.1/3.2 there. Because wiring everything would double the cost and width of wire (due to whole 11 pair of wires) and people buying type-c wire for charging don't even use it.
giancarlostoro 4y ago
> > Despite all of the praise USB-C gets for its universal connector, there are a lot of problems with it too. It is nearly impossible to tell what capabilities a cable might have just by looking at it, which could potentially damage a product if connected in an unexpected way. I wish USB C was forced to be color coded like USB 3 typically is. Some visual indicator that the drive you're using might be compatible, it might also not work as expected because the colors don't match.
- btown 4y ago
  Don't tell the electrical engineers; this is the pathway to color-code diagrams some may deem unnatural... https://eepower.com/resistor-guide/resistor-standards-and-codes/resistor-color-code/# https://eepower.com/resistor-guide/resistor-standards-and-co...
  - nomercy400 4y ago
    I haven't touched resistors in years, but from what I can remember, it's just a rainbow, with darkred(=brown) and black before, and grey/white after. And gold/silver are modifiers.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- ianburrell 4y ago
  Coloring the specification would be nice. Have it either in a band or on connector. There is already blue color for USB3. Would need color for the USB-PD extra power and for USB4/Thunderbolt. Most cables are USB2 and don't need color.
  - Night_Thastus 4y ago
    Color isn't sufficient, IMO. There's way too many possible combinations of speed and power. It's not nearly as simple as USB 3.0. They should just force every connector and cable to have a label on it that says the speed and power. Then, you'll always know for sure.
falcolas 4y ago
> which could potentially damage a product if connected in an unexpected way Only if the cable is bad. All capabilities are negotiated between the chips in the cable and the USB-C chipset in the device. Assuming all cables are automatically bad is an anti-consumer move.
- dotancohen 4y ago
  > Assuming all cables are automatically bad is an anti-consumer move. As a consumer, I would prefer that my phone take this defensive position rather than assuming all cables are bad and potentially burning down the house where my children sleep.
  - JustSomeNobody 4y ago
    Oh COME ON! How many USB-C cables do you currently own?
    - shagie 4y ago
      I count four at this desk, two in the living room, one in the kitchen, two in the bedroom and another many at my other desk.
    - dotancohen 4y ago
      At least a dozen. But I charge using 1.5 or 2 amp chargers that came with the devices that I own, I have not needed fast charging yet. I probably don't have any cables capable of 10+ watts.
  - falcolas 4y ago
    Do you require the same for your consoles, controller cables, the cables that power your computer, etc? Because those are potentially just as big of fire hazards. Just kidding - the worst fire hazards are non-grounded extension cables you find in homes everywhere. USB-C PD with its 100W doesn't even begin compare to those 1.8kW (or higher) disasters.
    - 4y ago
wlesieutre 4y ago
It would be pretty silly if my existing Apple cable that charges my Macbook at 61W isn't allowed to charge an iPhone much slower than that. One of Apple's alleged concerns with switching from Lightning to USB-C was the amount of waste it would generate with people needing to buy all new accessories. So their solution to that is ... wait 7 years after their laptops switched to USB-C to generate some extra Lightning trash, and then require me to buy extra USB-C cables even though I already have enough of them?
rektide 4y ago
There just isn't any evidence whatsoever to support there's a real problem. Consumers buy millions upon millions of cables & chargers, a huge % off brand and uncertified, and the number that have had damage to their phone or created fires is sub-microscopic. > given that there's not a good standard out there for Oh please. Abusrd poppycock. The clutching of pearls for this topic is incredible. There's multiple checks and safeguards in the spec. These systems are just not as fragile as portrayed. If this were just a 48V DC connection, yeah, there'd be some risk, but this is a reasonably well defined, safe-guarded system already. And there's just so little evidence of problems, and such a huge huge install-base already. Is there anyone else on the planet with a fanbase exhibiting even half the Stockholm Syndrome of Apple?
- thehappypm 4y ago
  “No steel cruise ship has ever sunk, why would this one?”
  - rektide 4y ago
    There's tiny tiny little problems if you really really really dig in - you can find issues - but using rank cowardice as a shitty excuse to avoid the obvious solution everyone else uses fine is just pathetic. And more so, it's not like Apple's cables never wear & get scary either. The magnitude of experience we have with cables versus cruise ships in 1912 is pretty different, don't you think? How many years had humanity been making rolled steel cruise ships before the Titanic? How many years have we been making cables? How many cruise ships do you think we'd made? How many cables do you think we've made? Your scare-quote just doesn't seem applicable. It's not even a bad analogy in some ways. Some cables probably do, like the Titanic, spend their time at sea with their coal bay accidentally on fire, do spend their time with some mild internal fault sapping some power. But wow it like just doesn't matter. I'm trying to think of something combustible at incredibly low temperatures that might compound this situation, to make a 130 degree cable a potential threat, to imagine a real case for this other-people's-cable-phobia. The risk is so mild. As soon as a there's a real fault, the system shuts down; phone and charger both have a role actively agreeing to keep the power flowing, both have fault detections. The Titanic lacked these plural safeguard, it's coal bay was on fire & they couldn't put it out, greatly heating the hull. Apple's defense is an entire religion around Fear Uncertainty & Doubt. It's the least brave, least exciting Think Different view of the world that I can imagine. I appreciate & get the value that Apple people say, that they like having well-defined paths & not having to think about things, but it seems always applied with zeal, even in cases like this, where opening up is obviously fine & better for everyone.
moogly 4y ago
I call bullshit. How many Apple charger recalls have there been already? 5? More?
ianburrell 4y ago
The "potentially damage a product if connected in an unexpected way" is wrong. It is impossible to damage device with in-spec cable and devices. Mismatched cable results in slower data or slower charging. Out-of-spec cables and chargers are definitely a problem but the solution is to not buy cheap junk. Specifying the capabilities won't help.
- dotancohen 4y ago
  "Don't but cheap junk" might be a great corporate policy, but it is not a viable or realistic consumer strategy.
- fnordpiglet 4y ago
  If only there were a standard that ensured it wasn’t junk and apple was encouraging the use of that standard.
  - ianburrell 4y ago
    Apple should encourage the USB-IF certification. I would be fine if they advertised it as "Apple certified".
    - fnordpiglet 4y ago
      Being on the board I’m sure they do. But my understanding is the MFi stuff here is to ensure a specific compliance that is a more strict subset of the USB-IF certification, and by using their trade mark they have standing to go after anyone violating it more aggressively than you might expect from a trade group. I also can’t see where the headline says they’re nerfing anything. It seems like MFi is a “maximum comparability and quality” standard they assert for their products, but their product is still usb-if compliant so works perfectly fine with any non MFi accessory. Further MFi doesn’t mean only works with apple or something. I literally see no issue with this beyond “Apple evil must be irate”
  - Eisenstein 4y ago
    How do you ensure a standard doesn't get bypassed by a bad actor? If it isn't working for USB-C why would it work for MFi? There are chips in USB-C cables that negotiate with the host; if they can fake those what stops them from faking MFi? The end result of this, is people buying more cables. USB-C was designed to mitigate the problem and now we have another standard using the same connector but requiring a different cable. It is just as bad as those devices which take USB-C but haven't updated the board to include sense resistors so they only charge with USB-A to C cables.
kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
> The idea is to stop 100W of power from being pushed down a cable You don't push Watts. The load controls what it consumes. So long as the voltage is within the device limits it can control the current draw from its end of the cable. If a supply won't fulfill the requested current, the device makes do with less or disables functionality without damaging itself. This is how all USB devices are required to operate.
- rkangel 4y ago
  You're roughly right about the two ends, but what about the middle? It is absolutely possible for a high power supply to be connected to a high power sink (like an iPhone) via a non-compliant cable. A high current value is negotiated, the iPhone starts drawing that much current and then the cable gets hot and in the extreme case - starts a fire.
  - JustSomeNobody 4y ago
    But it is extremely unlikely that Apple will enable 100W charging on iPhone. They'll probably stick with 20ishW so...
  - lozenge 4y ago
    Shall we start having Apple certified power sockets now in case a dangerous socket misbehaves and fries your electronics?
    - widowlark 4y ago
      You know how Apple has those ridiculously sized power bricks that make it very difficult to use standard power strips with? I once had someone tell me that normal power strips had their ground faced horizontally, and that it was 'unusual' for me to have the vertical power strips (which are nearly unbiquitous, as far as I can tell) - that was their reasoning on why Apples massive bricks posed no issue for power strips.
      - shagie 4y ago
rhaway84773 4y ago
Despite the fact that there isn’t any evidence of any of the companies who are already using USB-C being blamed by the EU for anything.
JohnFen 4y ago
The cable situation is awful, and is largely what's keeping me resisting USB-C. The thing that made me love USB was that it eliminated a whole ton of error and guesswork that plagued the serial tech it replaced. USB-C brings a lot of that back, which drastically reduces the usefulness of it to me. I know that eventually I'll have no choice but to go all USB-C, but for now, I can keep delaying that. By the time I do adopt it, perhaps they'll have figured out how to fix this issue and I'll be happy.
- dzikimarian 4y ago
  I'm using USB-C for years. I've single Chinese cable, bought many years ago, that simply refuses to work. Apart from that literally zero issues. I've used the same set of cables to connect windows laptops(full dock with double HDMI and charging), MacBook, Android phones, headphones and ton of other stuff. Most of these was either included with something or bought for about $5/piece. Nothing bad ever happened. Really it feels like some people got scared half of the decade ago and haven't checked since.
  - JohnFen 4y ago
    You misunderstand my comment. I'm not afraid of bad things happening. I'm talking about the fact that different cables have different capabilities. That adds complexity where the point of USB was to reduce it, and that is compounded by the fact that you can't even tell what sort of cable you have by looking at it. In terms of hassle, USB-C is a bit of a step backwards from the prior USB versions.
    - megous 4y ago
      Prior USB have like >20 different cable assemblies. There's like 9 different connectors you can have on the cable: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_hardware#/media/File:USB_2.0_and_3.0_connectors.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_hardware#/media/File:USB_2... cable can have or omit SS signals. A bit rose tinted glasses, I guess. And many micro/mini connectors are just unreliable crap. With USB-C you can just buy a superset cable, that supports everything at max speeds/max amperage and that's it.
exabrial 4y ago
I disagree. Apple is monopolistic at every turn. Example: My Garmin watch is not "Made For Apple" certified, probably because Garmin thinks that revealing their secrets to Apple, a direct competitor, is a bad idea. As a result, the Garmin Connect App does not get the same priv level and first class treatment on iOS. Besides, all Apple has to do is say, "if it's not a MFI accessory, then you're on your own, good luck, but something with the MFI tag next time". Actively shutting down the competition is a monopolistic behavior.
- vlovich123 4y ago
  AFAIK the MFA program doesn’t require you to reveal your IP at all. It does require you to add a chip which adds nontrivial cost to your BOM and takes up a nontrivial amount of space and power, things Apple doesn’t need to do for their own products as that’s neatly integrated in SW. So it does give Apple a meaningful advantage in any space they want to start competing with a partner, but access to IP is not it. Being able to run BI on your app and class of apps to understand market opportunity is also a thing they can do (and do) to understand if a space is worth competing in / focusing on.
ouid 4y ago
What about assuming that apple wants to continue to sell chargers because it's very profitable for them, and that any other extremely spurious justification they(you) give is PR.
atoav 4y ago
USB-C Powerdelivery (PD) negotiates the available power between the charger and the kit. The solution is to fix the cable to the charger.
thedougd 4y ago
I have owned many USB-C Android phones and currently own an iPhone 13. I have never had issues with USB-C cables other than variations in charging speeds. My iPhone also experiences variations in charging speeds for various lightning cables, chargers, as well as MagSafe. The only challenges I’ve had with USB-C are at the fringe, such as with high resolution monitors that have power delivery. These concerns are overblown for smart phones.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

by shagie 4y ago

znpy 4y ago

I’m pretty sure no laptop maker got blamed about some user using a third party power adapter and ruining the laptop or starting a fire. This is just bs.

JustSomeNobody 4y ago

> While a quality charger shouldn't try to push 60W or even 100W down an unsuitable cable, I've seen it happen. How is this even possible?

LorenPechtel 4y ago
Cheap cables may not implement the detection properly. Device says I want 100W, charger says I can give 100W, dumb cable just sits there letting them talk and doesn't say no.
- error503 4y ago
  What you describe would be a broken charger, not a broken cable. The charger is supposed to interrogate the cable and only offer 5A if a) the cable responds and b) responds with a 5A capability.
  - LorenPechtel 4y ago
    That's what's *supposed to* happen, but some of the bad cables omit that and the charger is actually talking to the device, not the cable.
    - error503 4y ago
      Huh? That's not how the PD protocol works, it's a multidrop bus, and the device won't respond to requests addressed to the cable.

kitsunesoba 4y ago

I agree. One might ask why they haven't done the same for iPads and MacBooks, and I think the answer there is the sheer difference in volume — Apple sells many, many more iPhones than they do iPads or MacBooks, and so the number of users that are likely to fall victim to shoddy cables is much higher, especially considering the increased percentage of less-tech-savvy buying phones compared to laptops or tablets. A lot of smartphone users see no issue with buying the cheapest "WEGLOB" branded cable on Amazon because as far as they're concerned, there's no difference between that and a cable from a more reputable manufacturer.

manuelabeledo 4y ago
I would also think that the tolerances between phones and laptops are vastly different. For instance, I have seen one or two phone batteries violently catching fire, but laptop batteries tend to swell slowly over time before failing.
- kitsunesoba 4y ago
  Phones and the cables used to charge them are also typically subject to far greater and more frequent abuse than laptops and their cables. Some people go through even quality charger cables like candy.
  - ericmay 4y ago
    I'd also add that I bet for at least Apple and probably other manufacturers when you buy a new laptop charger you probably buy it from the manufacturer. I know at least I wouldn't think twice about buying a new charger from Apple.
    - kitsunesoba 4y ago
      I certainly wouldn't chance a $1.5k+ MacBook on a bargain basement USB-C cable.
      - 4y ago

benj111 4y ago

> Then there's the issue of cables that claim to have the E-Mark And cables could also claim apple certification. Fake certification isn't an argument for certification.

fckgw 4y ago
Apple routinely enforces the MeFi program and if a company is faking it will get the listing removed from Amazon or elsewhere.
- benj111 4y ago
  From eBay? AliExpress? Your local shop? I assume apple just checks the brand rather than buy the hardware, so if it's the 'correct' brand it still won't get picked up. Plus how long before we get articles on here about how apple are taking down actual certified hardware?
  - fckgw 4y ago
    > Plus how long before we get articles on here about how apple are taking down actual certified hardware? The MFi program has been around for 18 years and it hasn't been an issue yet.

amluto 4y ago

I would imagine that a phone could also check for the E-Mark and limit charging power accordingly. (Presumably this is how USB-C already works, but maybe not. Certainly something tells the power sink the current limit, but I can imagine that the source queries the cable, computes (potentially incorrectly) the limit, and tells the sink, which then blindly trusts it.

error503 4y ago
The 'DFP' (source) interrogates the cable, and when it advertises its capabilities to the 'UFP' (sink) it will only include what is mutually supported by the source and cable. In theory I believe the 'UFP' can also query the cable once in a contract, but not sure if this is common/ever done, I guess this capability mostly exists to inform the user if the cable they are using is insufficient.
- amluto 4y ago
  Apple could implement that and refuse to charge quickly with an inappropriate cable. No special MFi chip needed
  - yencabulator 4y ago
    The MFi chip is "needed" for profit.

_thisdot 4y ago

Won’t Apple have already encountered this with their iPads and MacBooks? Shouldn’t the fact that Apple already makes USB C accessories and devices make this much smoother?

kelnos 4y ago

> I'm going to contend this isn't so much subverting EU rules but rather trying to ensure that Apple won't get blamed when someone uses a cable that can't handle the power when plugged in given that there's not a good standard out there for this and no enforcement of the "ok, there's something - try this..." That's just not true. The USB-IF won't certify a cable unless it can do 20V @ 3A, which is around 2x the voltage at 3A that the iPhone would even try to do. If true, this is just money-grab and spiteful behavior out of Apple, nothing more.

droopyEyelids 4y ago
What percent of cables coming out of China, sold on Amazon or in convenience stores/gas stations, do you believe have been certified by USB-IF?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- falcolas 4y ago
  3rd party misbehavior does not justify Apple misbehavior.
  - comfypotato 4y ago
    It’s not misbehavior by Apple if it’s to protect against 3rd party misbehavior.
    - falcolas 4y ago
      So why aren't we yelling at Apple for not doing this now with their USB-C powered Macbook Pro's with their 100W+ chargers and cables? Or thunderbolt cables? If there's such a huge pool of potential trouble brewing with a 20W phone, why do they even allow such maleficent third party malfeasance? /s
      - arcticbull 4y ago

ProAm 4y ago

What are your thought on data transfer speed? Why USB 2.0 speeds unless you pay for the more expensive phone and certified cable?

mmis1000 4y ago
Actually... most cheap type-c wire don't even wire the super speed data line for usb3.0/3.1. You can assume there isn't so much cheap wires for usb3.1/3.2 there. Because wiring everything would double the cost and width of wire (due to whole 11 pair of wires) and people buying type-c wire for charging don't even use it.

giancarlostoro 4y ago

> > Despite all of the praise USB-C gets for its universal connector, there are a lot of problems with it too. It is nearly impossible to tell what capabilities a cable might have just by looking at it, which could potentially damage a product if connected in an unexpected way. I wish USB C was forced to be color coded like USB 3 typically is. Some visual indicator that the drive you're using might be compatible, it might also not work as expected because the colors don't match.

btown 4y ago
Don't tell the electrical engineers; this is the pathway to color-code diagrams some may deem unnatural... https://eepower.com/resistor-guide/resistor-standards-and-codes/resistor-color-code/# https://eepower.com/resistor-guide/resistor-standards-and-co...
- nomercy400 4y ago
  I haven't touched resistors in years, but from what I can remember, it's just a rainbow, with darkred(=brown) and black before, and grey/white after. And gold/silver are modifiers.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
ianburrell 4y ago
Coloring the specification would be nice. Have it either in a band or on connector. There is already blue color for USB3. Would need color for the USB-PD extra power and for USB4/Thunderbolt. Most cables are USB2 and don't need color.
- Night_Thastus 4y ago
  Color isn't sufficient, IMO. There's way too many possible combinations of speed and power. It's not nearly as simple as USB 3.0. They should just force every connector and cable to have a label on it that says the speed and power. Then, you'll always know for sure.

falcolas 4y ago

> which could potentially damage a product if connected in an unexpected way Only if the cable is bad. All capabilities are negotiated between the chips in the cable and the USB-C chipset in the device. Assuming all cables are automatically bad is an anti-consumer move.

dotancohen 4y ago
> Assuming all cables are automatically bad is an anti-consumer move. As a consumer, I would prefer that my phone take this defensive position rather than assuming all cables are bad and potentially burning down the house where my children sleep.
- JustSomeNobody 4y ago
  Oh COME ON! How many USB-C cables do you currently own?
  - shagie 4y ago
    I count four at this desk, two in the living room, one in the kitchen, two in the bedroom and another many at my other desk.
  - dotancohen 4y ago
    At least a dozen. But I charge using 1.5 or 2 amp chargers that came with the devices that I own, I have not needed fast charging yet. I probably don't have any cables capable of 10+ watts.
- falcolas 4y ago
  Do you require the same for your consoles, controller cables, the cables that power your computer, etc? Because those are potentially just as big of fire hazards. Just kidding - the worst fire hazards are non-grounded extension cables you find in homes everywhere. USB-C PD with its 100W doesn't even begin compare to those 1.8kW (or higher) disasters.
  - 4y ago

wlesieutre 4y ago

It would be pretty silly if my existing Apple cable that charges my Macbook at 61W isn't allowed to charge an iPhone much slower than that. One of Apple's alleged concerns with switching from Lightning to USB-C was the amount of waste it would generate with people needing to buy all new accessories. So their solution to that is ... wait 7 years after their laptops switched to USB-C to generate some extra Lightning trash, and then require me to buy extra USB-C cables even though I already have enough of them?

rektide 4y ago

There just isn't any evidence whatsoever to support there's a real problem. Consumers buy millions upon millions of cables & chargers, a huge % off brand and uncertified, and the number that have had damage to their phone or created fires is sub-microscopic. > given that there's not a good standard out there for Oh please. Abusrd poppycock. The clutching of pearls for this topic is incredible. There's multiple checks and safeguards in the spec. These systems are just not as fragile as portrayed. If this were just a 48V DC connection, yeah, there'd be some risk, but this is a reasonably well defined, safe-guarded system already. And there's just so little evidence of problems, and such a huge huge install-base already. Is there anyone else on the planet with a fanbase exhibiting even half the Stockholm Syndrome of Apple?

thehappypm 4y ago
“No steel cruise ship has ever sunk, why would this one?”
- rektide 4y ago
  There's tiny tiny little problems if you really really really dig in - you can find issues - but using rank cowardice as a shitty excuse to avoid the obvious solution everyone else uses fine is just pathetic. And more so, it's not like Apple's cables never wear & get scary either. The magnitude of experience we have with cables versus cruise ships in 1912 is pretty different, don't you think? How many years had humanity been making rolled steel cruise ships before the Titanic? How many years have we been making cables? How many cruise ships do you think we'd made? How many cables do you think we've made? Your scare-quote just doesn't seem applicable. It's not even a bad analogy in some ways. Some cables probably do, like the Titanic, spend their time at sea with their coal bay accidentally on fire, do spend their time with some mild internal fault sapping some power. But wow it like just doesn't matter. I'm trying to think of something combustible at incredibly low temperatures that might compound this situation, to make a 130 degree cable a potential threat, to imagine a real case for this other-people's-cable-phobia. The risk is so mild. As soon as a there's a real fault, the system shuts down; phone and charger both have a role actively agreeing to keep the power flowing, both have fault detections. The Titanic lacked these plural safeguard, it's coal bay was on fire & they couldn't put it out, greatly heating the hull. Apple's defense is an entire religion around Fear Uncertainty & Doubt. It's the least brave, least exciting Think Different view of the world that I can imagine. I appreciate & get the value that Apple people say, that they like having well-defined paths & not having to think about things, but it seems always applied with zeal, even in cases like this, where opening up is obviously fine & better for everyone.

moogly 4y ago

I call bullshit. How many Apple charger recalls have there been already? 5? More?

ianburrell 4y ago

The "potentially damage a product if connected in an unexpected way" is wrong. It is impossible to damage device with in-spec cable and devices. Mismatched cable results in slower data or slower charging. Out-of-spec cables and chargers are definitely a problem but the solution is to not buy cheap junk. Specifying the capabilities won't help.

dotancohen 4y ago
"Don't but cheap junk" might be a great corporate policy, but it is not a viable or realistic consumer strategy.
fnordpiglet 4y ago
If only there were a standard that ensured it wasn’t junk and apple was encouraging the use of that standard.
- ianburrell 4y ago
  Apple should encourage the USB-IF certification. I would be fine if they advertised it as "Apple certified".
  - fnordpiglet 4y ago
    Being on the board I’m sure they do. But my understanding is the MFi stuff here is to ensure a specific compliance that is a more strict subset of the USB-IF certification, and by using their trade mark they have standing to go after anyone violating it more aggressively than you might expect from a trade group. I also can’t see where the headline says they’re nerfing anything. It seems like MFi is a “maximum comparability and quality” standard they assert for their products, but their product is still usb-if compliant so works perfectly fine with any non MFi accessory. Further MFi doesn’t mean only works with apple or something. I literally see no issue with this beyond “Apple evil must be irate”
- Eisenstein 4y ago
  How do you ensure a standard doesn't get bypassed by a bad actor? If it isn't working for USB-C why would it work for MFi? There are chips in USB-C cables that negotiate with the host; if they can fake those what stops them from faking MFi? The end result of this, is people buying more cables. USB-C was designed to mitigate the problem and now we have another standard using the same connector but requiring a different cable. It is just as bad as those devices which take USB-C but haven't updated the board to include sense resistors so they only charge with USB-A to C cables.

kevin_thibedeau 4y ago

> The idea is to stop 100W of power from being pushed down a cable You don't push Watts. The load controls what it consumes. So long as the voltage is within the device limits it can control the current draw from its end of the cable. If a supply won't fulfill the requested current, the device makes do with less or disables functionality without damaging itself. This is how all USB devices are required to operate.

rkangel 4y ago
You're roughly right about the two ends, but what about the middle? It is absolutely possible for a high power supply to be connected to a high power sink (like an iPhone) via a non-compliant cable. A high current value is negotiated, the iPhone starts drawing that much current and then the cable gets hot and in the extreme case - starts a fire.
- JustSomeNobody 4y ago
  But it is extremely unlikely that Apple will enable 100W charging on iPhone. They'll probably stick with 20ishW so...
- lozenge 4y ago
  Shall we start having Apple certified power sockets now in case a dangerous socket misbehaves and fries your electronics?
  - widowlark 4y ago
    You know how Apple has those ridiculously sized power bricks that make it very difficult to use standard power strips with? I once had someone tell me that normal power strips had their ground faced horizontally, and that it was 'unusual' for me to have the vertical power strips (which are nearly unbiquitous, as far as I can tell) - that was their reasoning on why Apples massive bricks posed no issue for power strips.
    - shagie 4y ago

rhaway84773 4y ago

Despite the fact that there isn’t any evidence of any of the companies who are already using USB-C being blamed by the EU for anything.

JohnFen 4y ago

The cable situation is awful, and is largely what's keeping me resisting USB-C. The thing that made me love USB was that it eliminated a whole ton of error and guesswork that plagued the serial tech it replaced. USB-C brings a lot of that back, which drastically reduces the usefulness of it to me. I know that eventually I'll have no choice but to go all USB-C, but for now, I can keep delaying that. By the time I do adopt it, perhaps they'll have figured out how to fix this issue and I'll be happy.

dzikimarian 4y ago
I'm using USB-C for years. I've single Chinese cable, bought many years ago, that simply refuses to work. Apart from that literally zero issues. I've used the same set of cables to connect windows laptops(full dock with double HDMI and charging), MacBook, Android phones, headphones and ton of other stuff. Most of these was either included with something or bought for about $5/piece. Nothing bad ever happened. Really it feels like some people got scared half of the decade ago and haven't checked since.
- JohnFen 4y ago
  You misunderstand my comment. I'm not afraid of bad things happening. I'm talking about the fact that different cables have different capabilities. That adds complexity where the point of USB was to reduce it, and that is compounded by the fact that you can't even tell what sort of cable you have by looking at it. In terms of hassle, USB-C is a bit of a step backwards from the prior USB versions.
  - megous 4y ago
    Prior USB have like >20 different cable assemblies. There's like 9 different connectors you can have on the cable: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_hardware#/media/File:USB_2.0_and_3.0_connectors.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_hardware#/media/File:USB_2... cable can have or omit SS signals. A bit rose tinted glasses, I guess. And many micro/mini connectors are just unreliable crap. With USB-C you can just buy a superset cable, that supports everything at max speeds/max amperage and that's it.

exabrial 4y ago

I disagree. Apple is monopolistic at every turn. Example: My Garmin watch is not "Made For Apple" certified, probably because Garmin thinks that revealing their secrets to Apple, a direct competitor, is a bad idea. As a result, the Garmin Connect App does not get the same priv level and first class treatment on iOS. Besides, all Apple has to do is say, "if it's not a MFI accessory, then you're on your own, good luck, but something with the MFI tag next time". Actively shutting down the competition is a monopolistic behavior.

vlovich123 4y ago
AFAIK the MFA program doesn’t require you to reveal your IP at all. It does require you to add a chip which adds nontrivial cost to your BOM and takes up a nontrivial amount of space and power, things Apple doesn’t need to do for their own products as that’s neatly integrated in SW. So it does give Apple a meaningful advantage in any space they want to start competing with a partner, but access to IP is not it. Being able to run BI on your app and class of apps to understand market opportunity is also a thing they can do (and do) to understand if a space is worth competing in / focusing on.

ouid 4y ago

What about assuming that apple wants to continue to sell chargers because it's very profitable for them, and that any other extremely spurious justification they(you) give is PR.

atoav 4y ago

USB-C Powerdelivery (PD) negotiates the available power between the charger and the kit. The solution is to fix the cable to the charger.

thedougd 4y ago

I have owned many USB-C Android phones and currently own an iPhone 13. I have never had issues with USB-C cables other than variations in charging speeds. My iPhone also experiences variations in charging speeds for various lightning cables, chargers, as well as MagSafe. The only challenges I’ve had with USB-C are at the fringe, such as with high resolution monitors that have power delivery. These concerns are overblown for smart phones.

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