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In my opinion, one of the most significant failures of modern education is the lack of emphasis on spaced repetition. It's really a shame that while we have les

In my opinion, one of the most significant failures of modern education is the lack of emphasis on spaced repetition. It's really a shame that while we have lessons on a wide range of topics, including the latest social justice causes, there is one technique that can be truly life-changing, yet it's often not taught until people reach adulthood and have to discover it on their own.

waynesonfire 4y ago
what do you call the two midterms, the final, the reading, the lecture, and the worksheets? all cover the same material at different times. if anything, it's higher level education (4, 5, and 600 level college courses) where i saw a lack of spaced repetition, or any sort of learning beyond the professor presenting the material. I guess it's expected that at that point you have your learning technique figured out.
- drjasonharrison 4y ago
  Sometimes they don't cover the same material. In post-secondary education, the amount of material, typically due to the speed or density of delivery, may reveal that your learning technique isn't working. For example you may spend too much time on one topic rather than on a topic more heavily weighted in an exam.
- bluSCALE4 4y ago
  I'm not sure but by spread out I would assume multi-year. What you described is still problematic. I believe this is why mixed grade classrooms worked out so well because this was inherently unavoidable.
- CuriouslyC 4y ago
  Having an intensive course on a subject over 3-6 months doesn't really let you do much in terms of spaced repetition. If a course is a year long and material is briefly visited, then often revisited, that could work, but even with a year long course, if you see the material on a quiz, a test and (a little bit) in the final that's not even close to optimal.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  > what do you call the two midterms, the final, the reading, the lecture, and the worksheets? Haphazard spaced repetition.
- poszlem 4y ago
  That's precisely my point. There should be a dedicated subject called "Effective Learning" or something similar, where students are equipped with the necessary tools to continue learning at a higher level after leaving school. The fact that individuals are unaware of these skills later in life is evidence of the education system's shortcomings.
__MatrixMan__ 4y ago
Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like spaced repetition is rather limited to the bottom two tiers of bloom's taxonomy. Can you flash-cards your way towards being effective at making the changes you want to see in the world?
- ttpphd 4y ago
  The image made me laugh!
- pessimizer 4y ago
  Using spaced repetition is not the same as replacing all other learning methods with spaced repetition. Just because spaced repetition isn't good for everything doesn't mean it shouldn't be used for what it is good at. It's good for remembering the specifics of things that you have already learned and understood.
- Kokouane 4y ago
  No, you can not. But Bloom's taxonomy is hierarchical, so covering the first two rungs is very important and necessary for the steps after that. Spaced repetition systems allow you to make sure those bases are covered in an optimal way.
  - poszlem 4y ago
    Pretty much this. Essentially, the bottom two tiers serve as the fundamental basis that ought to be robust and sturdy, but frequently end up being the place where students' academic progress comes to a halt.
dls2016 4y ago
This seems to be changing a bit. I have two children in a US public elementary school. The teachers use various apps to have children review mathematics facts. The apps allow children to move at their own pace and also incorporates some spaced repetition. (Though teachers seem to pick whatever app they like and the apps are of varying quality.)
- poszlem 4y ago
  I really hope you're correct. It feels a lot like the debate between phonics and whole language to me, where how we teach makes it difficult for the average student to learn. People here are discussing Bloom's Taxonomy and higher levels of learning, but many students struggle with even the most basic concepts.
rprospero 4y ago
I frequently hear this comment about spaced repetition, but I’m not sure how it would be different than modern education. In physics, we started with unit analysis, but it continued being a factor throughout the course. Then we learned kinematic, which didn’t disappear once we went into dynamics and both were constantly used with electrostatics. Similarly, in language courses, you start with a single conjugation in present indicative. You build out from there, but the present tense would still show up on every assignment, even after you’ve gone through pluperfect subjunctive. Needless to say, algebra courses freely called back to basic arithmetic and calculus called back to algebra. I feel like I must be attacking a straw man here, as you’re not the only individual I’ve met who found spaced repetition revelatory, but I’m still not sure what I’m missing.
- poszlem 4y ago
  Spaced repetition is particularly effective when it comes to memorizing a large volume of information quickly and retaining it for the long term. This is applicable to a wide range of subjects, including history (facts and dates), physics (formulas and laws), mathematics (formulas and laws), and many others. There is often a misconception that subjects like physics are solely about understanding and reasoning, but at the school level, it is necessary to have a solid grasp of the laws and formulas. Without this foundation, it is like attempting to write a program in a programming language without knowing the syntax. You have to stop and look up the syntax for each line of code, slowing down the entire process. Some things simply need to be memorized to achieve a certain level of proficiency.
  - account-5 4y ago
    This is definitely not my experience with space repetition. I really wanted it to work for me but I found it didn't help at all with retaining anything. I was using anki. The more cards I created/added made it worse.
    - BeetleB 4y ago
      Curious: How many cards did you create? And how often do you test yourself? You really need to do it daily with few gaps for it to be very effective. I would recommend not giving up but instead altering your approach. I tried spaced repetition multiple times in grad school and completely failed at it. I then tried again over 10 years later (and much older!) and it was really like attaining a super power. The success is even more remarkable because compared to my university days, I am much less actively using the material in the cards. In my case, the difference between the two attempts was sticking to the daily schedule[1] and getting better at creating relevant cards. And keep in mind: SR aids in recall, not in understanding. There have been times where I look at the cards on a certain topic and do very poorly (consistently). I then realize it's partly because some key understanding has been lost. I then need to do a proper study session (get the book out, read for understanding, perhaps do some problems). After that study session, I get good on the cards and stay good for a long time. In the last 4 years, I've needed to do this perhaps twice. [1] Yes, I do stop from time to time, but those are the exceptions, not the rule.
asdff 4y ago
IMO you kind of do get spaced repetition in modern education. As you specialize, you frequently have major classes where its "first week or two we dig into what you already should know, then we really dive into the deeper stuff." Or you take up a job, and maybe you have to refer to that one topic from class years ago twice a year, that's spaced repetition. In a sense, the nature of a specialized career forces you to engage in spaced repetition of the things you need to know, and allows you to safely ignore the stuff you never need to touch again. If we encouraged spaced repetition on each and everything, I would be wasting a ton of time on subjects that ultimately aren't relevant, at the expense of free time and maximizing time spent on the relevant bits.
- BeetleB 4y ago
  This is the perspective many people have, but in my experience it falls short. To quibble with your examples: > As you specialize, you frequently have major classes where its "first week or two we dig into what you already should know, then we really dive into the deeper stuff." Yes, they do this. But I've often seen (especially at the undergrad level) instructors avoiding topics or challenging problems because it required material beyond just the basic math/calculus (e.g. some trig identities, differential equations, etc). So in practice, this is not happening. > Or you take up a job, and maybe you have to refer to that one topic from class years ago twice a year, that's spaced repetition. It's even worse at work, where you don't have a teacher to enforce things. Suggestions get shot down all the time because coworkers have forgotten some (even trivial) things they learned at university, and they do not want to review it. I've seen this happens where they avoid basic Calc I stuff, where they avoid stuff in data structures (e.g. union find). They'll implement a poor solution, and convince management it can't be done better. Or that it can but it's a long term risk because if that one person who knows "union find" leaves, we won't be able to hire someone to maintain it, etc. > If we encouraged spaced repetition on each and everything, I would be wasting a ton of time on subjects that ultimately aren't relevant, at the expense of free time and maximizing time spent on the relevant bits. Michael Nielsen did an analysis of this after using Anki for a bunch of years: The average amount of time spent on a card over one's lifetime is about 10 minutes. And so he used that as a metric when encountering any new piece of information: "If I don't learn it, do I think I will spend more than 10 minutes looking it up in the future?" If yes, he'll make a flashcard for it. If not, he won't. But yes, I definitely have disabled cards on topics that I don't think I'll want to touch again in the future.

waynesonfire 4y ago

what do you call the two midterms, the final, the reading, the lecture, and the worksheets? all cover the same material at different times. if anything, it's higher level education (4, 5, and 600 level college courses) where i saw a lack of spaced repetition, or any sort of learning beyond the professor presenting the material. I guess it's expected that at that point you have your learning technique figured out.

drjasonharrison 4y ago
Sometimes they don't cover the same material. In post-secondary education, the amount of material, typically due to the speed or density of delivery, may reveal that your learning technique isn't working. For example you may spend too much time on one topic rather than on a topic more heavily weighted in an exam.
bluSCALE4 4y ago
I'm not sure but by spread out I would assume multi-year. What you described is still problematic. I believe this is why mixed grade classrooms worked out so well because this was inherently unavoidable.
CuriouslyC 4y ago
Having an intensive course on a subject over 3-6 months doesn't really let you do much in terms of spaced repetition. If a course is a year long and material is briefly visited, then often revisited, that could work, but even with a year long course, if you see the material on a quiz, a test and (a little bit) in the final that's not even close to optimal.
pessimizer 4y ago
> what do you call the two midterms, the final, the reading, the lecture, and the worksheets? Haphazard spaced repetition.
poszlem 4y ago
That's precisely my point. There should be a dedicated subject called "Effective Learning" or something similar, where students are equipped with the necessary tools to continue learning at a higher level after leaving school. The fact that individuals are unaware of these skills later in life is evidence of the education system's shortcomings.

__MatrixMan__ 4y ago

Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like spaced repetition is rather limited to the bottom two tiers of bloom's taxonomy. Can you flash-cards your way towards being effective at making the changes you want to see in the world?

ttpphd 4y ago
The image made me laugh!
pessimizer 4y ago
Using spaced repetition is not the same as replacing all other learning methods with spaced repetition. Just because spaced repetition isn't good for everything doesn't mean it shouldn't be used for what it is good at. It's good for remembering the specifics of things that you have already learned and understood.
Kokouane 4y ago
No, you can not. But Bloom's taxonomy is hierarchical, so covering the first two rungs is very important and necessary for the steps after that. Spaced repetition systems allow you to make sure those bases are covered in an optimal way.
- poszlem 4y ago
  Pretty much this. Essentially, the bottom two tiers serve as the fundamental basis that ought to be robust and sturdy, but frequently end up being the place where students' academic progress comes to a halt.

dls2016 4y ago

This seems to be changing a bit. I have two children in a US public elementary school. The teachers use various apps to have children review mathematics facts. The apps allow children to move at their own pace and also incorporates some spaced repetition. (Though teachers seem to pick whatever app they like and the apps are of varying quality.)

poszlem 4y ago
I really hope you're correct. It feels a lot like the debate between phonics and whole language to me, where how we teach makes it difficult for the average student to learn. People here are discussing Bloom's Taxonomy and higher levels of learning, but many students struggle with even the most basic concepts.

rprospero 4y ago

I frequently hear this comment about spaced repetition, but I’m not sure how it would be different than modern education. In physics, we started with unit analysis, but it continued being a factor throughout the course. Then we learned kinematic, which didn’t disappear once we went into dynamics and both were constantly used with electrostatics. Similarly, in language courses, you start with a single conjugation in present indicative. You build out from there, but the present tense would still show up on every assignment, even after you’ve gone through pluperfect subjunctive. Needless to say, algebra courses freely called back to basic arithmetic and calculus called back to algebra. I feel like I must be attacking a straw man here, as you’re not the only individual I’ve met who found spaced repetition revelatory, but I’m still not sure what I’m missing.

poszlem 4y ago
Spaced repetition is particularly effective when it comes to memorizing a large volume of information quickly and retaining it for the long term. This is applicable to a wide range of subjects, including history (facts and dates), physics (formulas and laws), mathematics (formulas and laws), and many others. There is often a misconception that subjects like physics are solely about understanding and reasoning, but at the school level, it is necessary to have a solid grasp of the laws and formulas. Without this foundation, it is like attempting to write a program in a programming language without knowing the syntax. You have to stop and look up the syntax for each line of code, slowing down the entire process. Some things simply need to be memorized to achieve a certain level of proficiency.
- account-5 4y ago
  This is definitely not my experience with space repetition. I really wanted it to work for me but I found it didn't help at all with retaining anything. I was using anki. The more cards I created/added made it worse.
  - BeetleB 4y ago
    Curious: How many cards did you create? And how often do you test yourself? You really need to do it daily with few gaps for it to be very effective. I would recommend not giving up but instead altering your approach. I tried spaced repetition multiple times in grad school and completely failed at it. I then tried again over 10 years later (and much older!) and it was really like attaining a super power. The success is even more remarkable because compared to my university days, I am much less actively using the material in the cards. In my case, the difference between the two attempts was sticking to the daily schedule[1] and getting better at creating relevant cards. And keep in mind: SR aids in recall, not in understanding. There have been times where I look at the cards on a certain topic and do very poorly (consistently). I then realize it's partly because some key understanding has been lost. I then need to do a proper study session (get the book out, read for understanding, perhaps do some problems). After that study session, I get good on the cards and stay good for a long time. In the last 4 years, I've needed to do this perhaps twice. [1] Yes, I do stop from time to time, but those are the exceptions, not the rule.

asdff 4y ago

IMO you kind of do get spaced repetition in modern education. As you specialize, you frequently have major classes where its "first week or two we dig into what you already should know, then we really dive into the deeper stuff." Or you take up a job, and maybe you have to refer to that one topic from class years ago twice a year, that's spaced repetition. In a sense, the nature of a specialized career forces you to engage in spaced repetition of the things you need to know, and allows you to safely ignore the stuff you never need to touch again. If we encouraged spaced repetition on each and everything, I would be wasting a ton of time on subjects that ultimately aren't relevant, at the expense of free time and maximizing time spent on the relevant bits.

BeetleB 4y ago
This is the perspective many people have, but in my experience it falls short. To quibble with your examples: > As you specialize, you frequently have major classes where its "first week or two we dig into what you already should know, then we really dive into the deeper stuff." Yes, they do this. But I've often seen (especially at the undergrad level) instructors avoiding topics or challenging problems because it required material beyond just the basic math/calculus (e.g. some trig identities, differential equations, etc). So in practice, this is not happening. > Or you take up a job, and maybe you have to refer to that one topic from class years ago twice a year, that's spaced repetition. It's even worse at work, where you don't have a teacher to enforce things. Suggestions get shot down all the time because coworkers have forgotten some (even trivial) things they learned at university, and they do not want to review it. I've seen this happens where they avoid basic Calc I stuff, where they avoid stuff in data structures (e.g. union find). They'll implement a poor solution, and convince management it can't be done better. Or that it can but it's a long term risk because if that one person who knows "union find" leaves, we won't be able to hire someone to maintain it, etc. > If we encouraged spaced repetition on each and everything, I would be wasting a ton of time on subjects that ultimately aren't relevant, at the expense of free time and maximizing time spent on the relevant bits. Michael Nielsen did an analysis of this after using Anki for a bunch of years: The average amount of time spent on a card over one's lifetime is about 10 minutes. And so he used that as a metric when encountering any new piece of information: "If I don't learn it, do I think I will spend more than 10 minutes looking it up in the future?" If yes, he'll make a flashcard for it. If not, he won't. But yes, I definitely have disabled cards on topics that I don't think I'll want to touch again in the future.