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At the point of bringing animals into this we'll probably have to clarify whether we're actually interested in sentience or sapience at some point. A worm resp

by corobo 4y ago

At the point of bringing animals into this we'll probably have to clarify whether we're actually interested in sentience or sapience at some point. A worm responds to external stimulus. It can also act without external prompting. It reproduces and tries to keep itself alive. Sentient, yeah I'd say so. Does it ponder, have wisdom, goals and dreams, etc? Sapience is probably a nah. Does the earth respond to external stimulus? It can be affected by it for sure. If you changed the strength of the sun's gravity the earth would do something different. But that's physics of the situation rather than planet itself responding or reacting to the change. Things on earth respond to stimulus, ecosystems can change due to disasters or changes in predator/prey populations, but does the planet itself respond to things - nah. If you could move the entire living population to another planet the ecosystems would work under the same rules. Earth (the physical ball of rock, not the "there's no place like home" personification) wouldn't be changed, damaged, or killed. Does an AI respond to external stimulus? Yes! Does an AI act without external prompting? It does not at this time. Not sentient. Not sapient. There are other definitions of course, don't get caught on this one example. There's no reason to check any other definitions as this one fails. Same thing as ordering your if statements. Maybe "sentient" just means "has and acts based on a dopamine or equivalent motivation system"

fooker 4y ago
> Does an AI act without external prompting? SentientChatGPT { while (true) ChatGPT(“Write something random”) } > Maybe "sentient" just means "has and acts based on a dopamine or equivalent motivation system" An equivalent system is exactly how it works.
- corobo 4y ago
  As far as I know GPT has no motivation. It responds because it is programmed to do so, it doesn't do it because it wants to. The dopamine system is an internal reward process. Does GPT give itself internal props ('consciously' or not) in any way for doing things it enjoyed doing or that proved to be useful? Legitimate question, I do not know. I'm not getting into the weeds on whether a while loop is sentient. That's an internal prompt sure but it's not motivated by anything, it's programmed.
  - fooker 4y ago
    > internal props in any way for doing things it enjoyed doing or that proved to be useful. Yes. > whether a while loop is sentient. My point with this exercise was not to prove a while loop to be sentient. The idea is that any definition of sentience you can come up with can be artificially defeated. I’m not claiming that ChatGPT is sentient, merely that you can not prove the opposite with our current understanding.
    - corobo 4y ago
      Could you expand on the yes? Or just chuck me some keywords I can look up. What is it's equivalent to dopamine called? I'm truly trying to know more. All of my opinions so far are direct evidence and feeling based rather than knowing the tech. If I'm wrong I'm wrong. [Edit: I just asked GPT itself. It reckons it does not have an equivalent to dopamine, closest it's got are algorithms designed to learn and improve based on feedback. I'm guessing that means the thumbs up and down and maybe some dev mode tools, external feedback mechanisms in any case] If we can't prove that something is sentient we'll just have to assume everything is sentient unless we can prove it isn't. In this case ChatGPT cannot do anything without being prompted (via function in a while loop or a chat message, lol). It is strictly a program and therefore is not sentient. Happy to reevaluate this basic hurdle when ChatGPT is able to send a useful/relevant/question/philosophical (any reasoning other than random) message first.
guhcampos 4y ago
I agree 100% with your reasoning but not with the concept of sentience you are pleading. The concept I have in my mind involved the capacity for experiencing emotions, something I don't believe worms can do, but which I believe dogs, dolphins, whales and elephants might. I had to look up the concept of Sapience in English, as it differ a bit from my native Portuguese. In Portuguese, "sapiência" means just Wisdom, something I believe is inherent to human experience and really out of bounds for AI, but it seems in English it can mean just the "capacity of applying knowledge", in which case we could argue an AI could potentially fit the definition.
- deleted 4y ago
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by corobo 4y ago

fooker 4y ago

> Does an AI act without external prompting? SentientChatGPT { while (true) ChatGPT(“Write something random”) } > Maybe "sentient" just means "has and acts based on a dopamine or equivalent motivation system" An equivalent system is exactly how it works.

corobo 4y ago
As far as I know GPT has no motivation. It responds because it is programmed to do so, it doesn't do it because it wants to. The dopamine system is an internal reward process. Does GPT give itself internal props ('consciously' or not) in any way for doing things it enjoyed doing or that proved to be useful? Legitimate question, I do not know. I'm not getting into the weeds on whether a while loop is sentient. That's an internal prompt sure but it's not motivated by anything, it's programmed.
- fooker 4y ago
  > internal props in any way for doing things it enjoyed doing or that proved to be useful. Yes. > whether a while loop is sentient. My point with this exercise was not to prove a while loop to be sentient. The idea is that any definition of sentience you can come up with can be artificially defeated. I’m not claiming that ChatGPT is sentient, merely that you can not prove the opposite with our current understanding.
  - corobo 4y ago
    Could you expand on the yes? Or just chuck me some keywords I can look up. What is it's equivalent to dopamine called? I'm truly trying to know more. All of my opinions so far are direct evidence and feeling based rather than knowing the tech. If I'm wrong I'm wrong. [Edit: I just asked GPT itself. It reckons it does not have an equivalent to dopamine, closest it's got are algorithms designed to learn and improve based on feedback. I'm guessing that means the thumbs up and down and maybe some dev mode tools, external feedback mechanisms in any case] If we can't prove that something is sentient we'll just have to assume everything is sentient unless we can prove it isn't. In this case ChatGPT cannot do anything without being prompted (via function in a while loop or a chat message, lol). It is strictly a program and therefore is not sentient. Happy to reevaluate this basic hurdle when ChatGPT is able to send a useful/relevant/question/philosophical (any reasoning other than random) message first.

guhcampos 4y ago

I agree 100% with your reasoning but not with the concept of sentience you are pleading. The concept I have in my mind involved the capacity for experiencing emotions, something I don't believe worms can do, but which I believe dogs, dolphins, whales and elephants might. I had to look up the concept of Sapience in English, as it differ a bit from my native Portuguese. In Portuguese, "sapiência" means just Wisdom, something I believe is inherent to human experience and really out of bounds for AI, but it seems in English it can mean just the "capacity of applying knowledge", in which case we could argue an AI could potentially fit the definition.

deleted 4y ago
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