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I think we should recognize that these loans were predatory by virtue of your average 18-year old being too stupid to understand the consequences of their decis

I think we should recognize that these loans were predatory by virtue of your average 18-year old being too stupid to understand the consequences of their decision or too hopeful about their future. The universities were complicit, in that they charged exorbitant amounts of money, ever increasing, for an education that would never pay for itself. They were the adults in the room, and neglected their duty to prepare the next generation. As a society we should agree that paying for education is absurd, since society benefits as much as the individual. Cancel student debt, make university free, and get rid of bullshit colleges that offer no promise of a bright future.

dudul 4y ago
A lot of comments talk about these kids who had no idea and were too stupid to understand things. I'm confused, should we revise the voting age and a few other things then? Sounds like 18 year old kids are just too dumb.
a_puppy 4y ago
> The universities were complicit, in that they charged exorbitant amounts of money... Get rid of bullshit colleges that offer no promise of a bright future. That's a great idea, but student loan forgiveness doesn't do that! It does nothing to hold the universities accountable. On the contrary, it enables universities to keep doing what they're currently doing! My view is that _someone_ needs to hold universities accountable: - Under the current system, students are theoretically holding universities accountable. When students choose a university, they (in theory) consider how valuable the education is to them personally, and balance that against how much they would have to pay. This is a decision that each student makes personally, and they personally pay the costs and personally receive the benefits. - But if we don't think students are able to make that decision, then someone else (e.g. the government) needs to hold universities accountable instead. For example, the government might put a cap on how much money universities can charge students, or put restrictions on universities offering degrees in fields that society considers less valuable. The problem with the student loan forgiveness plan is that _nobody_ is holding the universities accountable. Students have no incentive to consider the cost of tuition, if the taxpayer will ultimately foot the bill; but taxpayers won't get any say in whether the degree is worth it or not. > As a society we should agree that paying for education is absurd Right now, a lot of the benefits of education go to the student, in the form of higher salaries and higher social status. As long as that continues to be the case, I think it's only fair that students should be expected to pay for it.
- than3 4y ago
  There's some serious issues with what you propose. > Under the current system... holding universities accountable. No, universities are not accountable, they have optimized for repeat customers just like books, and now the autograders for the online class systems. There's almost no bargaining power here. Its a take it or leave it system. > But if we don't think students are able to make that decision. We already covered this under the previous statement. The decision doesn't do anything. > The problem with student loan forgiveness... The problem is there's no risk for the loan originators, you can't discharge the debt in bankruptcy court, even if there's fraud at the university, you are still responsible for paying the enron amounts. Its debt slavery for life until you can pay it off. > Right now a lot of benefits go to the student. Have you looked at graduation rates? Some of the better colleges are slightly above 25%, and don't get me started on the weed out/dropout factory classes they allow the teachers to structure. Ever seen a 3 unit class that requires 30 hours a week of study with a probability of passing that may be 0.3%^25th power, or negative because of defective Pearson Vue autograders... with Khan Academy lectures to the modules linked instead of the teacher actually lecturing? Seriously I can't make this up, just withdrew from it ($1,000 in books/tuition/material at week 4 80% of the class is failing). Absolute ridiculousness. If you want to fix education, you kick them in the gut where it hurts, the money.
  - a_puppy 4y ago
    > No, universities are not accountable ... If you want to fix education, you kick them in the gut where it hurts, the money. I agree! Universities today are dysfunctional, and the current system of "expect students to hold universities accountable by refusing to attend dysfunctional universities" doesn't seem to be working. My point is that _someone_ needs to be holding universities accountable, but the student loan forgiveness plan effectively means even less accountability for universities than they already have.
  - dudul 4y ago
    How is loan forgiveness addressing any of these?
    - 4y ago
Ekaros 4y ago
So maybe we should set some reasonable limit on how old person must be to enter into university? 25 or 30? Or just to take a loan in general? It is strange that we say 18 to be too young and stupid to make this type of contract, but not stop them making most other types of contracts. Or signing up for military... If they truly were that stupid, maybe we should significantly increase the age limits for contracts.
- lapcat 4y ago
  > Or signing up for military... This is the point. The military aims to recruit the vulnerable, because hardly anyone in their right mind would sign up to die. Most contracts won't change your life. They're short-term contracts. Even a car loan is only 4-5 years. Also, the kind of car you drive usually doesn't affect your earnings potential, so going cheaper and buying a used car doesn't hurt you at all. Not to mention, other kinds of loans are not guaranteed by the government, so you can't even get them unless you're credit-worthy, whereas they'll hand out unlimited student loans to any kid. It takes two sides to sign a contract. Everyone blames the kids, but nobody ever seems to blame those handing out the student loans to people who can't afford the loans. After all, this kind of predatory behavior played a big part in the subprime mortgage crisis. A few contracts can change your life. A home mortgage, e.g., a 30 year loan. Student loans, which can be almost the equivalent of a home mortgage, in some cases even bigger than a mortgage. Or of course signing up for the military, which could end your life. 18 year olds rarely need to enter into home mortgages. They can rent. Again, renting vs. owning your home usually doesn't have an effect on your earnings potential. And of course 18 year olds rarely even qualify for home mortgages. But society has determined that college degrees are important, and if you don't get one, it can greatly reduce your lifetime earnings. So kids feel extreme pressure to enter into these mortgage-like contracts.
- jenkstom 4y ago
  You entirely missed the key point of the original statement. These are not normal loans. You can't get rid of them in bankruptcy. The collectors use predatory (and somewhat terrifying) collection techniques. Stop comparing these to consumer anything, they aren't even remotely like that.

dudul 4y ago

A lot of comments talk about these kids who had no idea and were too stupid to understand things. I'm confused, should we revise the voting age and a few other things then? Sounds like 18 year old kids are just too dumb.

a_puppy 4y ago

> The universities were complicit, in that they charged exorbitant amounts of money... Get rid of bullshit colleges that offer no promise of a bright future. That's a great idea, but student loan forgiveness doesn't do that! It does nothing to hold the universities accountable. On the contrary, it enables universities to keep doing what they're currently doing! My view is that _someone_ needs to hold universities accountable: - Under the current system, students are theoretically holding universities accountable. When students choose a university, they (in theory) consider how valuable the education is to them personally, and balance that against how much they would have to pay. This is a decision that each student makes personally, and they personally pay the costs and personally receive the benefits. - But if we don't think students are able to make that decision, then someone else (e.g. the government) needs to hold universities accountable instead. For example, the government might put a cap on how much money universities can charge students, or put restrictions on universities offering degrees in fields that society considers less valuable. The problem with the student loan forgiveness plan is that _nobody_ is holding the universities accountable. Students have no incentive to consider the cost of tuition, if the taxpayer will ultimately foot the bill; but taxpayers won't get any say in whether the degree is worth it or not. > As a society we should agree that paying for education is absurd Right now, a lot of the benefits of education go to the student, in the form of higher salaries and higher social status. As long as that continues to be the case, I think it's only fair that students should be expected to pay for it.

than3 4y ago
There's some serious issues with what you propose. > Under the current system... holding universities accountable. No, universities are not accountable, they have optimized for repeat customers just like books, and now the autograders for the online class systems. There's almost no bargaining power here. Its a take it or leave it system. > But if we don't think students are able to make that decision. We already covered this under the previous statement. The decision doesn't do anything. > The problem with student loan forgiveness... The problem is there's no risk for the loan originators, you can't discharge the debt in bankruptcy court, even if there's fraud at the university, you are still responsible for paying the enron amounts. Its debt slavery for life until you can pay it off. > Right now a lot of benefits go to the student. Have you looked at graduation rates? Some of the better colleges are slightly above 25%, and don't get me started on the weed out/dropout factory classes they allow the teachers to structure. Ever seen a 3 unit class that requires 30 hours a week of study with a probability of passing that may be 0.3%^25th power, or negative because of defective Pearson Vue autograders... with Khan Academy lectures to the modules linked instead of the teacher actually lecturing? Seriously I can't make this up, just withdrew from it ($1,000 in books/tuition/material at week 4 80% of the class is failing). Absolute ridiculousness. If you want to fix education, you kick them in the gut where it hurts, the money.
- a_puppy 4y ago
  > No, universities are not accountable ... If you want to fix education, you kick them in the gut where it hurts, the money. I agree! Universities today are dysfunctional, and the current system of "expect students to hold universities accountable by refusing to attend dysfunctional universities" doesn't seem to be working. My point is that _someone_ needs to be holding universities accountable, but the student loan forgiveness plan effectively means even less accountability for universities than they already have.
- dudul 4y ago
  How is loan forgiveness addressing any of these?
  - 4y ago

Ekaros 4y ago

So maybe we should set some reasonable limit on how old person must be to enter into university? 25 or 30? Or just to take a loan in general? It is strange that we say 18 to be too young and stupid to make this type of contract, but not stop them making most other types of contracts. Or signing up for military... If they truly were that stupid, maybe we should significantly increase the age limits for contracts.

lapcat 4y ago
> Or signing up for military... This is the point. The military aims to recruit the vulnerable, because hardly anyone in their right mind would sign up to die. Most contracts won't change your life. They're short-term contracts. Even a car loan is only 4-5 years. Also, the kind of car you drive usually doesn't affect your earnings potential, so going cheaper and buying a used car doesn't hurt you at all. Not to mention, other kinds of loans are not guaranteed by the government, so you can't even get them unless you're credit-worthy, whereas they'll hand out unlimited student loans to any kid. It takes two sides to sign a contract. Everyone blames the kids, but nobody ever seems to blame those handing out the student loans to people who can't afford the loans. After all, this kind of predatory behavior played a big part in the subprime mortgage crisis. A few contracts can change your life. A home mortgage, e.g., a 30 year loan. Student loans, which can be almost the equivalent of a home mortgage, in some cases even bigger than a mortgage. Or of course signing up for the military, which could end your life. 18 year olds rarely need to enter into home mortgages. They can rent. Again, renting vs. owning your home usually doesn't have an effect on your earnings potential. And of course 18 year olds rarely even qualify for home mortgages. But society has determined that college degrees are important, and if you don't get one, it can greatly reduce your lifetime earnings. So kids feel extreme pressure to enter into these mortgage-like contracts.
jenkstom 4y ago
You entirely missed the key point of the original statement. These are not normal loans. You can't get rid of them in bankruptcy. The collectors use predatory (and somewhat terrifying) collection techniques. Stop comparing these to consumer anything, they aren't even remotely like that.