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For once, this directly affect me. I've been looking for a place since November 2022 in Los Angeles and it's the opposite that I see. In November, I'd find 4 b

For once, this directly affect me. I've been looking for a place since November 2022 in Los Angeles and it's the opposite that I see. In November, I'd find 4 bedrooms for $3800 (2000+sqf). I thought it was expensive, but someone always got it before me. Now we are in March and I can't find anything reasonably close with 4 bedrooms for less than $4,500. And again, someone is always snatching these before I get them. Maybe when you average out all the prices it seems to be going down. But browsing through the zill/apt/red/etc. does feel like prices are going up. ... still looking for a place by the way

ttul 4y ago
The rental market varies considerably from market to market. Where I live, there seems to be no end in sight for rental increases.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  I own a few rental properties. During my last renewal cycle, I kept rent flat and every single tenant renewed no questions asked. A friend was competing with 30 other people for a townhouse rental for them and their two kids.
Arainach 4y ago
4br isn't exactly a common scenario in the apartment market. I doubt there are enough of them to even make a dent in overall statistical analysis.
- jlhawn 4y ago
  The latest episode of the Odd Lots Podcast (Feb. 27, 2023) titled "Why We Don't Build More Apartments for Families" > On this episode of the Odd Lots podcast, we explore the hidden incentives and regulations that deter builders from making more family-friendly buildings.
  - rcme 4y ago
    I have friend who own apartments for rent. They have a rule that they’ll never buy large apartments and they’ll never rent to families. Their reasoning was that: 1. Families who rent are likely unstable because, all else equal, a family would prefer to own due to the stability owning provides. 2. It’s too heartbreaking to evict a family. Just a random anecdote
    - aclatuts 4y ago
      People rent detached homes to families all the time. My sister does it and I live next to a family who rents a detached home. Why would the viewpoint of owners be any different with renting apartments to families??
      - luckylion 4y ago
        Detached homes are more isolated noise-wise, that's often not the case in apartments. If you rent out apartments, you want low-trouble tenants, not someone you might get a lot complaints about. That's also why many try to exclude people with dogs, they don't want to deal with dogs howling all day and neighbors complaining.
    - leguminous 4y ago
      I just want to point out that, in the US, it is illegal to not rent to families. More specifically, it is illegal to discriminate based on familial status. Whether anyone is actually enforcing that in a particular area may be a different matter.
      - mbesto 4y ago
        That's not what the parent comment was saying. They were saying that there is a reasonable explanation to not develop properties that cater to families - e.g. 4 bedrooms. The alternative is that the 4-bedroom that you conceivably might construct would rent out to 4 individuals who would split the bill...which also introduces a whole bunch of other challenges. Overall point still seems valid - which is there is little financial advantage to renting out a 4-bedroom property and thus a limited supply.
- bombcar 4y ago
  4br are often listed as 3br with an office or similar, but at that point you’re probably looking at renting a house.
  - ajmurmann 4y ago
    But if I want to live in a walkable downtown location, houses aren't usually an option either.
    - 3np 4y ago
      So you're in a niche market that may behave differently than the wider ones. (I have no idea if that's the case or not BTW)
      - brailsafe 4y ago
        It's kind of disappointing how much pigeonholing sibling commenters are doing in this thread. If I had kids, I sure as hell wouldn't raise them in the suburbs. Less people are having kids in-part because more people live in cities in NA and the calculation is made that not only is it unaffordable to raise a family, but there's no availability either. The suburbs would be my choice if I already had the kids and ran out of viable options to house them where I live, in an urban area.
        chongli 4y ago
        People planning to have kids want to live in the suburbs because the U.S., in its infinite wisdom, funds schools from local property taxes. If you live where there are nice houses, you get to send your kids to nice schools.
        ericmay 4y ago
        In many cities some of the most expensive real estate is in or adjacent to the downtown area because those areas were built before cars and so they’re walkable and appropriately dense. Since they are rare now and illegal to rebuild, the value of those neighborhoods is quite high and they are often considered the nicer homes. Architecturally there is little doubt. Only a custom build can compare. Most in the suburbs don’t live in a “nice home”. There are more expensive homes dictated by tiers where you have more square footage and maybe a pool or something but these homes aren’t particularly nice either and aren’t well designed in the interior or exterior. Typically this is because there is too much space to do anything neat or useful. Of course you’re right that many states fund schools through property tax and why I’m bemused by Republican efforts to initiate school voucher programs because based on typical policy relying on home ownership and property taxes to fund schools “keeps the undesirables out”. Once you go the voucher route you can’t do that anymore. Of course you can say well they’ll charge extra fees and such, but that’s assuming that families in the suburbs can afford extra monthly payments on top of everything else and I just don’t see it. On the other hand vouchers can be a nice tool. Why should someone be forced to go to a bad school because they can only afford rent or a mortgage in the cheaper part of town? Maybe every kid gets a voucher to attend any public school they wish and the schools have to adjust. Finding a way to create competition within the public school system should be examined. Districting and property taxes for schools are probably regressive, especially for a child who has very little agency in the matter but has the most need.
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  4br are very common in specific markets e.g. college towns, but yeah in professional areas probably not. Families needing to rent will probably look for houses more than apartments.
- mschuster91 4y ago
  > 4br isn't exactly a common scenario in the apartment market. On the builders side maybe not, because it's less profitable to build a highrise or large block with few but large units that have low churn and so less opportunities to raise rent. On the demand side however? Completely hot market, because families want their children to have separate rooms (a fact that has been correlated with learning success even in 2006 [1], and most obviously during the pandemic years). A 3BR is barely enough for a family with two children, but now with the rise of home-office/fully remote work you'll need a 4 or even 5 BR simply to have enough room. [1] https://taz.de/Enge-macht-dumm/!409005/ https://taz.de/Enge-macht-dumm/!409005/
hifromLA 4y ago
Hey made this account to share my experience… My wife and I have been looking to buy something in LA and we’ve been outbid by $100k+ twice already. The LA market is simply insane whether you’re buying or renting. The only “deals” I’ve seen are on properties with clear flaws (e.g. poor location, bad floor plan, etc.) I’m not sure where you’re looking exactly, but all I can do is wish you luck and say yes, LA real estate is tough.
- bombcar 4y ago
  Find something with a flaw that can be mitigated for $100k maybe. Like a foundation issue or something.
  - disantlor 4y ago
    from personal experience... i would be careful with that idea. at least in NYC anything that seems like it surely cant cost more than 100k will cost you 250
    - bombcar 4y ago
      Yeah, you really need to be certain on the cost.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- foxfired 4y ago
  I've seen many with gotchas. Pictures look fantastic, first visit looks great, and then on the lease it says this is just the model unit. The actual unit available is the one facing the freeway. With these prices I'd love to buy, but it takes a while to gather the deposit with a new job. If all fails, orange county it is. Wish you luck as well :)
  - theonething 4y ago
    Is Orange County any cheaper?
88913527 4y ago
This could be observation bias because the above-median listings are going to sit longer. So you scroll through, and that's what you see. The at-market or below-market listings will be quickly filled and removed. The same thing happens in the for-sale market too. The same thing is true for order books for stocks. Anything that matches the buyer and seller at an agreeable price is fulfilled. The people selling too high or bidding too low sit on the order book longer.
highwaylights 4y ago
Obviously this is one stranger’s uninformed opinion, but I do believe this situation will change faster than people would think. So much money has been put into real estate as an investment due to unprecedentedly cheap debt over many years that it’s only beginning to unwind now. Prices are falling, at least regionally. I don’t see how the real estate market can support small falls without a full crash, as unless there are substantial gains each year, landlords are facing mounting adjusted losses due to interest rate rises. Given the amount of leverage in real estate, most won’t be able to weather this storm without becoming insolvent, and those that can won’t be willing to do so. tldr; I have high confidence this is just the beginning of a severe correction. (Again, just an armchair observer with an opinion).
- jgwil2 4y ago
  > I don’t see how the real estate market can support small falls without a full crash, as unless there are substantial gains each year, landlords are facing mounting adjusted losses due to interest rate rises. In the US at least, this is unlikely to happen as mortgages are almost all fixed-rate. In fact, with inflation pushing up rents and reducing everyone's relative amount of debt, it's probably a great time to be a landlord.
onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
I think prices are mainly going down in smaller areas where rents went up A TON (which is something like 30-40% of the country by population). This is because the amount of new units deployed was staggering. In some towns in the Texas Triangle, there were literally more new units delivered this year than existing supply. Doing something like that in LA or NYC would be absurd, given how much existing supply there is... Nevermind the Nimbyism. And yet, Orlando has something like a 1/3rd increase in supply coming. So there are some big cities that are exceptions. If you're in a place like NYC or LA or Chicago - where the increase in supply is like 2% - don't expect much relief from new supply...
- moneywoes 4y ago
  Where do you determine that on a city level? Is there an article
  - onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
    https://www.reddit.com/r/realestateinvesting/comments/11dnrlr/article_in_wsj_today_apartment_rents_fall_as/ https://www.reddit.com/r/realestateinvesting/comments/11dnrl... There's a few companies that sell data on stabilized units, units under construction, and units expected to deliver in the year. I don't know of anyone that makes the data public - but maybe someone else does???
eloisant 4y ago
Different markets can behave wildly differently. Not just different states/cities but different kind of homes too (appartment vs single family, size, standing, etc). So talking about the overall market always hides big differences in each market.

ttul 4y ago

The rental market varies considerably from market to market. Where I live, there seems to be no end in sight for rental increases.

toomuchtodo 4y ago
I own a few rental properties. During my last renewal cycle, I kept rent flat and every single tenant renewed no questions asked. A friend was competing with 30 other people for a townhouse rental for them and their two kids.

Arainach 4y ago

4br isn't exactly a common scenario in the apartment market. I doubt there are enough of them to even make a dent in overall statistical analysis.

jlhawn 4y ago
The latest episode of the Odd Lots Podcast (Feb. 27, 2023) titled "Why We Don't Build More Apartments for Families" > On this episode of the Odd Lots podcast, we explore the hidden incentives and regulations that deter builders from making more family-friendly buildings.
- rcme 4y ago
  I have friend who own apartments for rent. They have a rule that they’ll never buy large apartments and they’ll never rent to families. Their reasoning was that: 1. Families who rent are likely unstable because, all else equal, a family would prefer to own due to the stability owning provides. 2. It’s too heartbreaking to evict a family. Just a random anecdote
  - aclatuts 4y ago
    People rent detached homes to families all the time. My sister does it and I live next to a family who rents a detached home. Why would the viewpoint of owners be any different with renting apartments to families??
    - luckylion 4y ago
      Detached homes are more isolated noise-wise, that's often not the case in apartments. If you rent out apartments, you want low-trouble tenants, not someone you might get a lot complaints about. That's also why many try to exclude people with dogs, they don't want to deal with dogs howling all day and neighbors complaining.
  - leguminous 4y ago
    I just want to point out that, in the US, it is illegal to not rent to families. More specifically, it is illegal to discriminate based on familial status. Whether anyone is actually enforcing that in a particular area may be a different matter.
    - mbesto 4y ago
      That's not what the parent comment was saying. They were saying that there is a reasonable explanation to not develop properties that cater to families - e.g. 4 bedrooms. The alternative is that the 4-bedroom that you conceivably might construct would rent out to 4 individuals who would split the bill...which also introduces a whole bunch of other challenges. Overall point still seems valid - which is there is little financial advantage to renting out a 4-bedroom property and thus a limited supply.
bombcar 4y ago
4br are often listed as 3br with an office or similar, but at that point you’re probably looking at renting a house.
- ajmurmann 4y ago
  But if I want to live in a walkable downtown location, houses aren't usually an option either.
  - 3np 4y ago
    So you're in a niche market that may behave differently than the wider ones. (I have no idea if that's the case or not BTW)
    - brailsafe 4y ago
      It's kind of disappointing how much pigeonholing sibling commenters are doing in this thread. If I had kids, I sure as hell wouldn't raise them in the suburbs. Less people are having kids in-part because more people live in cities in NA and the calculation is made that not only is it unaffordable to raise a family, but there's no availability either. The suburbs would be my choice if I already had the kids and ran out of viable options to house them where I live, in an urban area.
      - chongli 4y ago
        People planning to have kids want to live in the suburbs because the U.S., in its infinite wisdom, funds schools from local property taxes. If you live where there are nice houses, you get to send your kids to nice schools.
        ericmay 4y ago
        In many cities some of the most expensive real estate is in or adjacent to the downtown area because those areas were built before cars and so they’re walkable and appropriately dense. Since they are rare now and illegal to rebuild, the value of those neighborhoods is quite high and they are often considered the nicer homes. Architecturally there is little doubt. Only a custom build can compare. Most in the suburbs don’t live in a “nice home”. There are more expensive homes dictated by tiers where you have more square footage and maybe a pool or something but these homes aren’t particularly nice either and aren’t well designed in the interior or exterior. Typically this is because there is too much space to do anything neat or useful. Of course you’re right that many states fund schools through property tax and why I’m bemused by Republican efforts to initiate school voucher programs because based on typical policy relying on home ownership and property taxes to fund schools “keeps the undesirables out”. Once you go the voucher route you can’t do that anymore. Of course you can say well they’ll charge extra fees and such, but that’s assuming that families in the suburbs can afford extra monthly payments on top of everything else and I just don’t see it. On the other hand vouchers can be a nice tool. Why should someone be forced to go to a bad school because they can only afford rent or a mortgage in the cheaper part of town? Maybe every kid gets a voucher to attend any public school they wish and the schools have to adjust. Finding a way to create competition within the public school system should be examined. Districting and property taxes for schools are probably regressive, especially for a child who has very little agency in the matter but has the most need.
SoftTalker 4y ago
4br are very common in specific markets e.g. college towns, but yeah in professional areas probably not. Families needing to rent will probably look for houses more than apartments.
mschuster91 4y ago
> 4br isn't exactly a common scenario in the apartment market. On the builders side maybe not, because it's less profitable to build a highrise or large block with few but large units that have low churn and so less opportunities to raise rent. On the demand side however? Completely hot market, because families want their children to have separate rooms (a fact that has been correlated with learning success even in 2006 [1], and most obviously during the pandemic years). A 3BR is barely enough for a family with two children, but now with the rise of home-office/fully remote work you'll need a 4 or even 5 BR simply to have enough room. [1] https://taz.de/Enge-macht-dumm/!409005/ https://taz.de/Enge-macht-dumm/!409005/

hifromLA 4y ago

Hey made this account to share my experience… My wife and I have been looking to buy something in LA and we’ve been outbid by $100k+ twice already. The LA market is simply insane whether you’re buying or renting. The only “deals” I’ve seen are on properties with clear flaws (e.g. poor location, bad floor plan, etc.) I’m not sure where you’re looking exactly, but all I can do is wish you luck and say yes, LA real estate is tough.

bombcar 4y ago
Find something with a flaw that can be mitigated for $100k maybe. Like a foundation issue or something.
- disantlor 4y ago
  from personal experience... i would be careful with that idea. at least in NYC anything that seems like it surely cant cost more than 100k will cost you 250
  - bombcar 4y ago
    Yeah, you really need to be certain on the cost.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
foxfired 4y ago
I've seen many with gotchas. Pictures look fantastic, first visit looks great, and then on the lease it says this is just the model unit. The actual unit available is the one facing the freeway. With these prices I'd love to buy, but it takes a while to gather the deposit with a new job. If all fails, orange county it is. Wish you luck as well :)
- theonething 4y ago
  Is Orange County any cheaper?

88913527 4y ago

This could be observation bias because the above-median listings are going to sit longer. So you scroll through, and that's what you see. The at-market or below-market listings will be quickly filled and removed. The same thing happens in the for-sale market too. The same thing is true for order books for stocks. Anything that matches the buyer and seller at an agreeable price is fulfilled. The people selling too high or bidding too low sit on the order book longer.

highwaylights 4y ago

Obviously this is one stranger’s uninformed opinion, but I do believe this situation will change faster than people would think. So much money has been put into real estate as an investment due to unprecedentedly cheap debt over many years that it’s only beginning to unwind now. Prices are falling, at least regionally. I don’t see how the real estate market can support small falls without a full crash, as unless there are substantial gains each year, landlords are facing mounting adjusted losses due to interest rate rises. Given the amount of leverage in real estate, most won’t be able to weather this storm without becoming insolvent, and those that can won’t be willing to do so. tldr; I have high confidence this is just the beginning of a severe correction. (Again, just an armchair observer with an opinion).

jgwil2 4y ago
> I don’t see how the real estate market can support small falls without a full crash, as unless there are substantial gains each year, landlords are facing mounting adjusted losses due to interest rate rises. In the US at least, this is unlikely to happen as mortgages are almost all fixed-rate. In fact, with inflation pushing up rents and reducing everyone's relative amount of debt, it's probably a great time to be a landlord.

onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago

I think prices are mainly going down in smaller areas where rents went up A TON (which is something like 30-40% of the country by population). This is because the amount of new units deployed was staggering. In some towns in the Texas Triangle, there were literally more new units delivered this year than existing supply. Doing something like that in LA or NYC would be absurd, given how much existing supply there is... Nevermind the Nimbyism. And yet, Orlando has something like a 1/3rd increase in supply coming. So there are some big cities that are exceptions. If you're in a place like NYC or LA or Chicago - where the increase in supply is like 2% - don't expect much relief from new supply...

moneywoes 4y ago
Where do you determine that on a city level? Is there an article
- onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
  https://www.reddit.com/r/realestateinvesting/comments/11dnrlr/article_in_wsj_today_apartment_rents_fall_as/ https://www.reddit.com/r/realestateinvesting/comments/11dnrl... There's a few companies that sell data on stabilized units, units under construction, and units expected to deliver in the year. I don't know of anyone that makes the data public - but maybe someone else does???

eloisant 4y ago

Different markets can behave wildly differently. Not just different states/cities but different kind of homes too (appartment vs single family, size, standing, etc). So talking about the overall market always hides big differences in each market.