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The problem with this isn't the idea of a car repossessing itself per se, because repossession is already a legitimate thing; it's the idea that your car can be
by HomeDeLaPot 4y ago
The problem with this isn't the idea of a car repossessing itself per se, because repossession is already a legitimate thing; it's the idea that your car can be remotely controlled by anyone other than you. There are already so many things that can go wrong. I don't want to buy a car that can be remotely disabled because I drove near a protest, or because there was a "clerical error" at Ford, or because my payment didn't go through, or because of a spotty connection or a software bug or a hacker! I'm also not sure I want to drive a car that collects and uploads analytics to my insurance company. (Although maybe it would be interesting as an opt-in system with a hardware kill switch that saves you boatloads of money if you don't drive like an a-hole...)
I'm pretty happy with the old, non-Internet-connected car that I drive. My phone already has all the smarts that my car needs for navigation and playing media and stuff. And from backup cameras to safer lane changing to full self driving, I can't think of a feature that I'd want to be built into the car and Internet-connected except for remote start (not sure I'd use it) or full-on "tell my car to drive somewhere without me."
- magic_hamster 4y agoBrace yourself then, because the future of automotive is highly connected, and in many ways it already is. Every car since the early 2000s has computerized components that control everything from power steering to infotainment systems, and your car probably already communicates with some servers using a built in cellular sim. Hackers have been able to compromise cars for at least a couple of decades, and while car manufacturers are getting better at securing their products, they are all pushing hard for further connectivity. This means apps and subscriptions for your car, new protocols that lets cars exchange information, and a huge reliance on cloud. Source: first hand sources working in well known automotive corporations.
- giobox 4y agoEvery new Ford on sale today in the US, from the cheapest Maverick to the most expensive F150 configuration, now has remote monitoring and access via 5G as standard - it's needed if nothing else to offer the apps to remote start and unlock the car that consumers just expect now. Its generally the same industry wide. > https://www.ford.com/support/category/fordpass/ https://www.ford.com/support/category/fordpass/
- heavyset_go 4y agoIs it always connected or do drivers need to pay a fee for connectivity?
- zrobotics 4y agoAlways connected, no fee. Although the car (at least my 21) also offers a cellular wifi hotspot that appears to use the ATT network[0]. No clue what the monthly pricing is, I've never signed up for that trial. I have the lowest spec, cheapest car Ford had available and it still has the cellular antenna. I checked, and at leadt on an ecosport the cell antenna is very easy to remove and doesn't impact functionality of the car. That being said, I did reconnect the cellular antenna since app-enabled remote start is a genuinely useful feature. I can warm the car up from my desk without having to walk within range of the keyfob, so I am accepting that bit of privacy loss. [0] https://www.ford.com/support/category/fordpass/fordpass-connect-wifi-hotspot/ https://www.ford.com/support/category/fordpass/fordpass-conn...
- heavyset_go 4y agoThanks for the info. I wonder if anyone's repurposed these radios/SIM/whatever for free 5G/LTE traffic.
- tru3_power 4y agoHow would that work?
- Nextgrid 4y agoTake out the SIM from the car's network interface module and put it in a phone/modem. If they're restricting by IMEI you may need to spoof that.
- giobox 4y agoDo we think ford even bother with SIM cards? Lots of modern 5G devices have e-sims etc, much easier for the factory floor if SIM card can be loaded via software too. None of my families cellphones have physical sims anymore either.
- JohnFen 4y agoThis is why I only buy old cars. If that becomes impossible in the future, that would be enough to get me to finally give up owning a car entirely.
- wizardcreator 4y agoMe too. Just need to make sure I live where I can walk and bike as I get old.
- patrick451 4y agoSame, at least in part. I wish there was a database or wiki of some sort that collected when every model stopped being un-connected and adopted the rest of these user hostile features.
- ashwagary 4y agoTrue, all the smarter people end up becoming Will Smith in iRobot.
- oynqr 4y agoHell, some old cars are well supported by completely open-source ECUs. Sadly, the number one best supported car is always the damn Miata.
- HybridCurve 4y agoLikely because they are inexpensive and are beloved track cars. I was hoping the GT88/BRZ would oust the miata from this position- I much prefer a hard top over a convertible, but I think the existing after market and price point make it hard to compete.
- oynqr 4y agoI think there are bolt-on hardtops for NA and NB Miatas. Looks kinda funky. Also yeah, the Toyota 86 family is still too expensive to be a project car for most.
- 4y ago
- mistrial9 4y agobut, you work in certain markets. You likely don't know yourself, that most of the population of the world does not have these things.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago> Brace yourself then, because the future of automotive is highly connected Thats not the problem - the problem is you are / will not be the owner, you can never become the owner because the firmware is not for sale. You are just a peasant that pays for the hardware and tne repair bill and is allowed to drive it unless you break one of the clauses in 900 page EULA
- nitwit005 4y agoSadly, it seems the Titanic must sink to get maritime safety laws. Eventually some hacker will decide crashing cars is fun, and I don't expect real security to happen before that. The same goes for medical equipment.
- __MatrixMan__ 4y ago> some hacker will decide crashing cars is fun $5 says the hacker will be a nation state, and the "fun" will be an assassination that's hard to prove wasn't a glitch.
- Qem 4y agoPerhaps it already happened: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Hastings_(journalist) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Hastings_(journalist...
- Rantenki 4y agoI recently was working on highly connected autonomous public transportation. Can confirm that connectivity is only increasing, and that cloud connectivity is going to be a hard requirement in the future. As for security, while the automotive manufacturers are aware of dangers, and standards like ISO21434 https://www.iso.org/standard/70918.html https://www.iso.org/standard/70918.html are driving them towards better security engineering practices, there is a huge gulf between process/compliance/governance, and truly secure engineering practices as a core part of engineering culture. Many/most of the people working on the on-board systems come from an embedded development background that doesn't include pervasive connectivity. That's a problem. They might check the boxes to appear secure, but they aren't necessarily invested in the process. My prediction; there _is_ going to be a severe and widespread automotive security event which cannot be ignored, before that culture shifts.
- skibidibipiti 4y ago[dead]
- rkagerer 4y agoMy prediction; there _is_ going to be a severe and widespread automotive security event which cannot be ignored, before that culture shifts. Yeah that's a big Definitely. I wish developers and consumers alike exercised a higher standard for software quality and weren't becoming increasingly tolerant of crap.
- heavyset_go 4y ago> (Although maybe it would be interesting as an opt-in system with a hardware kill switch that saves you boatloads of money if you don't drive like an a-hole...) This exists and just serves to charge customers more money while blowing smoke up their asses, people want to believe they're better drivers than the rest.
- post-it 4y agoYeah, it'll go from "you save money if you opt-in" to "you pay much more if you don't opt-in" as soon as possible.
- JohnFen 4y ago> I'm pretty happy with the old, non-Internet-connected car that I drive. I'm so happy with it that I will never own one that is internet connected, unless I can disable the internet connection in some way.
- turdprincess 4y agoCurious whats your plan if new cars become increasingly internet connected, kinda how smart TVs went? Will you keep driving early 2000s cars until they become "vintage"?
- Panzer04 4y agoPresumably you could always just break the 5G module - the carmaker can’t assume internet connectivity, so it should work fine without.
- zrobotics 4y agoYep, I tested with my 21 Ford and removing the TCU (telematics control unit, that acronym should be general to most of the industry) disabled cell communication but didn't impact operation of the vehicle. I did end up hooking it back up to re-enable remote start since I'm in a cold climate, but I couldn't help myself but test this. Something mobile like a car can't assume connectivity, although I have heard reports of people stranded when using rental services that rely on cell connection. Forum confirmation here: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/disabling-fordpass-telematics.340381/ https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/disabling-fordpass...
- lelanthran 4y agoOf course they can, the car will check in at least once every few months, so you can go without internet connectivity for 30 days or so without problems. Almost everyone will get within range of internet at least once every two months, so few Wil notice or care that the car requires constant contact with the mother ship.
- kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 4y ago
- TEP_Kim_Il_Sung 4y agoIf you want to know why this sort of thing might be bad, ask Michael Hastings.
- ashwagary 4y agoTech literate people often complain about buying portable consumer devices and not "really" owning them. This is a whole nother level of control loss. Not only do you not completely own the hardware but in the worst case scenario, the hardware can remotely be used to restrict freedom of movement or kill you and others. I personally wouldn't recommend buying an electric vehicle unless it's extremely dumb or is capable of running an open-source and customizable operating system.
- alwayslikethis 4y agoI think a much better bet (though expensive) is to convert a somewhat old car into an electric one with fully custom firmware. I hope someone would be able to commercialize conversion kits for the most popular vehicles in operation today.
- snek_case 4y agoThere are conversion kits and electric crate motors [0] that are available to enthusiasts. The problem is that EVs and traditional ICE vehicles are built very differently. In order to fit enough batteries, the batteries are usually built under the vehicle in what's called a "skateboard". You can't do that easily when retrofitting an ICE vehicle, so you end up sacrificing trunk space. Modern EVs are also much more lightweight and aerodynamic than ICE vehicles, and they can do regen braking. Without all of the modern EV innovations, you just don't get nearly the same range. So yeah. You should probably get a modern EV and just crack the firmware to jailbreak it instead, which is likely to happen in short order. A challenge there though is that when it comes to autonomous vehicles, you're likely going to need updates to the map data on a semi-regular basis. You could also become liable if someone gets hurt and it's found that you tinkered around with your autonomous car's software. [0] https://www.thedrive.com/news/42974/fords-281-hp-electric-crate-motor-costs-3900-and-you-can-buy-one-now https://www.thedrive.com/news/42974/fords-281-hp-electric-cr...
- hansvm 4y ago> Modern EVs are also much more lightweight and aerodynamic than ICE vehicles It's probably worth noting, just in case anyone is accidentally misled here, EVs are vastly heavier than ICE equivalents, but most of the delta is the battery, and the frame and supporting structures are often lighter.
- colinflane 4y ago"clerical error" reminds me, recently rewatched Gilliam's Brazil (1985). From the Wikipedia article's section on Plot: > One day, shortly before Christmas, an insect becomes jammed in a teleprinter, which misprints a copy of an arrest warrant it was receiving. This leads to the arrest and death during interrogation of cobbler Archibald Buttle instead of renegade heating engineer and suspected terrorist Archibald Tuttle. A literal bug!
- js2 4y ago"Mistake? Haha. We don't make mistakes." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzFmPFLIH5s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzFmPFLIH5s
- abdulstevenson 4y agoI think all parents will agree that having a connected car is a dream come true. Ideally, I would be able to drive my children remotely using my phone so that I can ensure they are not driving recklessly.
- kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 4y agoParent here, strong disagree. If I can spy on them and control their vehicle, who else can? At some point you have to trust your kids to not be stupid. If you can't do that, you done messed up in raising them.
- PartiallyTyped 4y agoThere’s a video of a Jeep getting remote controlled in the middle of a highway, all because the audio and entertainment system was connected to the brain. Iirc wired had an article on this.
- dieselgate 4y agoIm pretty happy with my 88 ford as well but have the opposite problem - am more worried about getting it to start at all