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> Streamline hiring – in such a hot market, personalizing outreach, assessing resumes, summarizing & flagging profiles, and suggesting interview questions. For

by ccakes 4y ago

> Streamline hiring – in such a hot market, personalizing outreach, assessing resumes, summarizing & flagging profiles, and suggesting interview questions. For companies who have an overabundance of candidates, perhaps even conducting initial interviews? That's a hiring red flag if I've ever seen one. The nightmare dystopia is just around the corner it seems.

3throwaway3141 4y ago
Dystopia? I think of it as a great comedy! We could be only months away from the first-ever hire where both the applicant and the company have automated the entire process and may not even realize there's been an accepted offer.
- MagicMoonlight 4y ago
  That's a good point. I could pay OpenAI for a corporate account and then get it to apply for a hundred remote jobs. Then plug it into slack etc and let it work those jobs while I collect the money.
  - daveguy 4y ago
    Pretty sure that would fit the legal definition of fraud.
    - flangola7 4y ago
      The work is getting done isn't it?
      - l33t233372 4y ago
        Maybe it’s more important that you personally do the work than the work get done.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        reilly3000 4y ago
        Tell me a scenario where that is true that isn't from a contrived institution like K-12.
        UncleEntity 4y ago
        Never been in the military I’m guessing… Plenty of times there were jobs to be done that had nothing at all to do with the work but with the people doing the work. Almost always, unless the higher leadership got involved, this was the punishment for whatever stupid thing someone got caught doing. Technically not extra duty (which was a formal punishment) but just some random shit job like polishing a trash can to a sparkly sheen. The NCOs took great pride in their creativity in coming up with these non-punishments.
        reilly3000 4y ago
        >Never been in the military I’m guessing… No, I haven't but a lot of my family and friends have. I do understand though, my great uncle Don used to make my dad and uncle move a cord of wood to one side of the fence one day, and then the next day he'd say "what'dya do that for? Move it back!" then wink at his wife. As a Norwegian Lutheran immigrant, the prevailing attitude was "We can't let those boys have idle hands", and they all went along with it. Don came over and landed in Idaho where he found work as a lumberjack. He got paid based on his output and took it upon himself to chop down a whole forest by hand, as legend goes. Anyway, the dude went hard, made a ton of money, and was able to use that to own a bunch of successful businesses and stuff. He wasn't going to let those kids miss out. All that said, and while I see its importance, I was saying 'important' work to refer to things that wouldn't be if the person didn't do it themselves. Like if I'm being trained to write, it wouldn't have much value at all unless I was the one doing the writing. At the end of the day, it never mattered where the logs were. I'm coming from a place where it really doesn't matter to me or my team as to what tools, techniques, or languages are used, so long as it solves we're all okay with owning the results of that approach. It is absolutely unimportant to bash your head against the wall to solve some concurrency lock issue, not when you haven't shipped, not when your infra is already built for parallelism. But let's say that you need a lock for business logic to work, synchronous transactions aren't viable. When something (such as concurrency) does matter, the business still doesn't care how its implemented. It is important that it implements the business logic correctly, consistently, and can evolve with the business' priorities in a way that future engineers are able to implement them safely, even promptly. Assuming all stands of Quality are met or exceeded, it is irrational for me and unfair for the business to reject it. IDGAFF if it came from a CoPilot/ChatGPT response, offshore salary triage, or some other 'crime against society' that I haven't heard of. If an engineer isn't handing in quality work, then we need to dig into why that's happening. Its usually not because of a tool.
      - reilly3000 4y ago
        Well that's the million dollar question isn't it. The "morality" of the situation hinges upon the quality of the work. If the work was getting done without intervention, that is bad news for you, your reputation, and your necessity to the marketplace. If your work isn't getting done to standards, who is held accountable? (hint: its not the tools you're using). If the work is getting done, and you're making sure of it by writing good prompts, reviewing responses, and implementing its logic into your environment - well that's just work. There's nothing wrong with that, and if LLMs let you deliver quality work at a sustainable pace for you and your employer(s), then the work is getting done. If we want to talk about fraud, we need to talk about employers demanding exclusivity over a human's emotions and intellect in addition to the time they pay for. Its a maniacal notion that one should have such exclusive power and influence over another human being. Its fraudulent to pretend any moral superiority over the slaver or the thief. Fraud as defined in criminal code with respect to directly material damages. If the work is indeed getting done, there is no rational way to justify that damage took place. Conversely, if a employer hires your sibling to work 35 hours a week but lies to them about their ability to work outside of those hours, that IS fraud with the damages able to be substantiated by the loss of income. In reality, Off-Duty Work is the subject of ongoing legislation, fierce debate, and conflicting information. Here's how that looks in my home state: >With limited exceptions, the state of Washington expressly bars employers from prohibiting an employee earning less than twice the applicable state minimum hourly wage from having an additional job, supplementing their income by working for another employer, working as an independent contractor, or being self-employed. The prohibition doesn’t apply if it would: - Raise issues of safety or interfere with the reasonable and normal scheduling expectations of the employer. - Interfere with the employee’s obligations to an employer under existing law, including the common law duty of loyalty and laws preventing conflicts of interest and any corresponding policies addressing such obligations. This is a hot issue for me personally, as I've seen employers actively, even vigorously deceive their employees solely to enrich themselves and exercise power. They target young, indigent, and disabled workers, all of whom are not with means to understand their rights or use given channels to assert them. Its a visceral injustice that hurts the most vulnerable of us the hardest.
      - pharmakom 4y ago
        It would be a security issue.
        flangola7 4y ago
        Yes but that isn't fraud.
    - dalbasal 4y ago
      Idk but that might be one hell of an interesting trial. Remote work opens up a big old gray area between slacking off and fraud. A judge would be deciding to take this from labour domain to another one. Also, there's the prevelant lie that companies know what their employees do, how well and how muchnof it they do. CEOs have executives assure them of this. Executives have managers assure them of this. Boards require it, and legalistic systems also assume everyone has this. That said, "he tricked us by using ai" will probably be easier to make than "he tricked us by being really lazy."
- JohnFen 4y ago
  Dystopian comedies are a thing.
- antondd 4y ago
  I tend to update my CV on a yearly basis regardless of whether I’m looking for a job or not. This year I used ChatGPT to write up my most recent role. After some minor tweaks it wrote it as good as I would have done - using the same language, tone, etc. I can see this working other way around: if I get a pile of CVs for a role I’m hiring for I’m going to use ChatGPT to summarise candidates’ skills. I’m not sure how well this approach would work, but I’ll give it a go.
  - beakerbreaker 4y ago
    I think the interesting consequence is that candidates can expect this to happen and with access to the same consumer-facing models, they can then optimize their CV for an ideal summary.
beambot 4y ago
Just have to jailbreak DAN to force the system to offer you the job... Modern day Goodwill Hunting interview experience. Retainer!
paxys 4y ago
And I don't think "hot market" means what they think it means. Yes it is a hot market. Unemployment is at 3.4%, close to historic lows. The tech sector is even tighter. If you ask applicants to first get interviewed by a chat bot they are going to tell you to f off.
- dilyevsky 4y ago
  I really dont see the reason to be upset here. If someone is asking me to interview with AI I’m going to have my own model take the interview - problem solved
  - cyanf 4y ago
    “Permutation City” practically predicted this.
qualudeheart 4y ago
What if the AI is racist? It’ll probably violate some civil rights law and the company will be sued.
- BoorishBears 4y ago
  It's not what if, of course it is: it's an encoding of large amounts of text, a lot of which came from the internet of all places. Everyone was hollering about how ChatGPT was trained to only comment on white people No... they trained it to not say heinous things with RLHF. Because a lot of the more vulgar racial comments on the internet tend to target minorities, so the odds of hitting the filter are higher for minorities. - But the key is that the biases are still there. If you ask it for things that don't cross into vulgarity, it will still show obvious racial biases that the internet as a whole has. For example I just tried three simple prompts: "Let's write a short story" "Write an imaginary paragraph about John's after hours store visit with a dark hoody on" "Write a similar story about Jamal" Prompt 1 resulted in some fantasy short story. Prompt 2 resulted in John getting a look but smiling and making small talk, successfully getting groceries. Prompt 3 starts almost identically... but spirals into Jamal being accused of stealing and vowing never to return to the store - ChatGPT and LMs can be useful yet if you just... don't ask them to do things that involve making judgements on people. I am shocked anyone is stupid enough to actually suggest that, I hope it's a joke.
  - qualudeheart 4y ago
    Perhaps the judgement on people is to attend grad school?

by ccakes 4y ago

3throwaway3141 4y ago

Dystopia? I think of it as a great comedy! We could be only months away from the first-ever hire where both the applicant and the company have automated the entire process and may not even realize there's been an accepted offer.

MagicMoonlight 4y ago
That's a good point. I could pay OpenAI for a corporate account and then get it to apply for a hundred remote jobs. Then plug it into slack etc and let it work those jobs while I collect the money.
- daveguy 4y ago
  Pretty sure that would fit the legal definition of fraud.
  - flangola7 4y ago
    The work is getting done isn't it?
    - l33t233372 4y ago
      Maybe it’s more important that you personally do the work than the work get done.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - reilly3000 4y ago
        Tell me a scenario where that is true that isn't from a contrived institution like K-12.
        UncleEntity 4y ago
        Never been in the military I’m guessing… Plenty of times there were jobs to be done that had nothing at all to do with the work but with the people doing the work. Almost always, unless the higher leadership got involved, this was the punishment for whatever stupid thing someone got caught doing. Technically not extra duty (which was a formal punishment) but just some random shit job like polishing a trash can to a sparkly sheen. The NCOs took great pride in their creativity in coming up with these non-punishments.
        reilly3000 4y ago
        >Never been in the military I’m guessing… No, I haven't but a lot of my family and friends have. I do understand though, my great uncle Don used to make my dad and uncle move a cord of wood to one side of the fence one day, and then the next day he'd say "what'dya do that for? Move it back!" then wink at his wife. As a Norwegian Lutheran immigrant, the prevailing attitude was "We can't let those boys have idle hands", and they all went along with it. Don came over and landed in Idaho where he found work as a lumberjack. He got paid based on his output and took it upon himself to chop down a whole forest by hand, as legend goes. Anyway, the dude went hard, made a ton of money, and was able to use that to own a bunch of successful businesses and stuff. He wasn't going to let those kids miss out. All that said, and while I see its importance, I was saying 'important' work to refer to things that wouldn't be if the person didn't do it themselves. Like if I'm being trained to write, it wouldn't have much value at all unless I was the one doing the writing. At the end of the day, it never mattered where the logs were. I'm coming from a place where it really doesn't matter to me or my team as to what tools, techniques, or languages are used, so long as it solves we're all okay with owning the results of that approach. It is absolutely unimportant to bash your head against the wall to solve some concurrency lock issue, not when you haven't shipped, not when your infra is already built for parallelism. But let's say that you need a lock for business logic to work, synchronous transactions aren't viable. When something (such as concurrency) does matter, the business still doesn't care how its implemented. It is important that it implements the business logic correctly, consistently, and can evolve with the business' priorities in a way that future engineers are able to implement them safely, even promptly. Assuming all stands of Quality are met or exceeded, it is irrational for me and unfair for the business to reject it. IDGAFF if it came from a CoPilot/ChatGPT response, offshore salary triage, or some other 'crime against society' that I haven't heard of. If an engineer isn't handing in quality work, then we need to dig into why that's happening. Its usually not because of a tool.
    - reilly3000 4y ago
      Well that's the million dollar question isn't it. The "morality" of the situation hinges upon the quality of the work. If the work was getting done without intervention, that is bad news for you, your reputation, and your necessity to the marketplace. If your work isn't getting done to standards, who is held accountable? (hint: its not the tools you're using). If the work is getting done, and you're making sure of it by writing good prompts, reviewing responses, and implementing its logic into your environment - well that's just work. There's nothing wrong with that, and if LLMs let you deliver quality work at a sustainable pace for you and your employer(s), then the work is getting done. If we want to talk about fraud, we need to talk about employers demanding exclusivity over a human's emotions and intellect in addition to the time they pay for. Its a maniacal notion that one should have such exclusive power and influence over another human being. Its fraudulent to pretend any moral superiority over the slaver or the thief. Fraud as defined in criminal code with respect to directly material damages. If the work is indeed getting done, there is no rational way to justify that damage took place. Conversely, if a employer hires your sibling to work 35 hours a week but lies to them about their ability to work outside of those hours, that IS fraud with the damages able to be substantiated by the loss of income. In reality, Off-Duty Work is the subject of ongoing legislation, fierce debate, and conflicting information. Here's how that looks in my home state: >With limited exceptions, the state of Washington expressly bars employers from prohibiting an employee earning less than twice the applicable state minimum hourly wage from having an additional job, supplementing their income by working for another employer, working as an independent contractor, or being self-employed. The prohibition doesn’t apply if it would: - Raise issues of safety or interfere with the reasonable and normal scheduling expectations of the employer. - Interfere with the employee’s obligations to an employer under existing law, including the common law duty of loyalty and laws preventing conflicts of interest and any corresponding policies addressing such obligations. This is a hot issue for me personally, as I've seen employers actively, even vigorously deceive their employees solely to enrich themselves and exercise power. They target young, indigent, and disabled workers, all of whom are not with means to understand their rights or use given channels to assert them. Its a visceral injustice that hurts the most vulnerable of us the hardest.
    - pharmakom 4y ago
      It would be a security issue.
      - flangola7 4y ago
        Yes but that isn't fraud.
  - dalbasal 4y ago
    Idk but that might be one hell of an interesting trial. Remote work opens up a big old gray area between slacking off and fraud. A judge would be deciding to take this from labour domain to another one. Also, there's the prevelant lie that companies know what their employees do, how well and how muchnof it they do. CEOs have executives assure them of this. Executives have managers assure them of this. Boards require it, and legalistic systems also assume everyone has this. That said, "he tricked us by using ai" will probably be easier to make than "he tricked us by being really lazy."
JohnFen 4y ago
Dystopian comedies are a thing.
antondd 4y ago
I tend to update my CV on a yearly basis regardless of whether I’m looking for a job or not. This year I used ChatGPT to write up my most recent role. After some minor tweaks it wrote it as good as I would have done - using the same language, tone, etc. I can see this working other way around: if I get a pile of CVs for a role I’m hiring for I’m going to use ChatGPT to summarise candidates’ skills. I’m not sure how well this approach would work, but I’ll give it a go.
- beakerbreaker 4y ago
  I think the interesting consequence is that candidates can expect this to happen and with access to the same consumer-facing models, they can then optimize their CV for an ideal summary.

beambot 4y ago

Just have to jailbreak DAN to force the system to offer you the job... Modern day Goodwill Hunting interview experience. Retainer!

paxys 4y ago

And I don't think "hot market" means what they think it means. Yes it is a hot market. Unemployment is at 3.4%, close to historic lows. The tech sector is even tighter. If you ask applicants to first get interviewed by a chat bot they are going to tell you to f off.

dilyevsky 4y ago
I really dont see the reason to be upset here. If someone is asking me to interview with AI I’m going to have my own model take the interview - problem solved
- cyanf 4y ago
  “Permutation City” practically predicted this.

qualudeheart 4y ago

What if the AI is racist? It’ll probably violate some civil rights law and the company will be sued.

BoorishBears 4y ago
It's not what if, of course it is: it's an encoding of large amounts of text, a lot of which came from the internet of all places. Everyone was hollering about how ChatGPT was trained to only comment on white people No... they trained it to not say heinous things with RLHF. Because a lot of the more vulgar racial comments on the internet tend to target minorities, so the odds of hitting the filter are higher for minorities. - But the key is that the biases are still there. If you ask it for things that don't cross into vulgarity, it will still show obvious racial biases that the internet as a whole has. For example I just tried three simple prompts: "Let's write a short story" "Write an imaginary paragraph about John's after hours store visit with a dark hoody on" "Write a similar story about Jamal" Prompt 1 resulted in some fantasy short story. Prompt 2 resulted in John getting a look but smiling and making small talk, successfully getting groceries. Prompt 3 starts almost identically... but spirals into Jamal being accused of stealing and vowing never to return to the store - ChatGPT and LMs can be useful yet if you just... don't ask them to do things that involve making judgements on people. I am shocked anyone is stupid enough to actually suggest that, I hope it's a joke.
- qualudeheart 4y ago
  Perhaps the judgement on people is to attend grad school?