4 ms·

Is Blow even a good example to look at? He's released 2 games in 18 years which definitely had phenomenal game play but are not technically complex even for the

by bbatha 4y ago

Is Blow even a good example to look at? He's released 2 games in 18 years which definitely had phenomenal game play but are not technically complex even for the the time.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
Yes, he is a good example. His games are as highly regarded as they are because he takes the time to really work through everything about them and ensure they're the product he wants. If you watch his streams you'll see that he is constantly experimenting with things, both gameplay-wise and in the engine... and now in his own compiler for his own programming language. Jon is not making the by-the-numbers annual entry in the Call of FIFA series here. But also, as a nit pick, Jon isn't just programming all the time, he's running a business and he is very involved in the indie game community and a founding member of indie fund. And when he is programming it isn't always for his own games. Here is a link to the credits page for him at MobyGames: https://www.mobygames.com/person/188969/jonathan-blow/credits/ https://www.mobygames.com/person/188969/jonathan-blow/credit... Where in addition to nebulous "Special Thanks" credits, you will note programming and QA credits on several non-Thekla games.
- bbatha 4y ago
  Look I'm a huge fan of his games! And I really can't understate how influential his game design nor the work he does for the indie community. However, I think a lot of folks tend to assume his software engineering skills are great because his game design is excellent. I don't think that's an earned position. Releasing 2 games in 18 years that are not pushing the technical envelope does not scream software engineering expertise. You say he has more credits but only one of those is programming since Braid. On the other hand, on a software engineering level those paint by numbers Modern Warfare and FIFA games are both more technically impressive and are designed for fast iteration. Moreover he's pushing a particular paradigm and view point that is in many ways the opposite of clean code. He pushes for still doing very low level design with minimal abstractions. But even at the time Braid could have been written in python SDL wrappers and probably had similar performance, and the witness could have used unity. If clean code is about maintenance and time to market, the Blow paradigm hasn't proven that its needed or fixes the holes in clean code. This is not to say clean code is perfect just that Blow hasn't cracked the nut either and I don't know why people act like he is the final word, or honestly even a respected voice, in game software engineering. On the other hand, if Blow wanted to talk about managing indie studios or game design my ears would prick up instantly.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
    > I don't think that's an earned position. I disagree. > You say he has more credits but only one of those is programming since Braid. He did start a company after that you know. A successful one that makes money and employs people to make art. I don't imagine that running a business takes no time from his life. > But even at the time Braid could have been written in python SDL wrappers and probably had similar performance Braid did a lot more than you give it credit for. Here's a GDC talk about the rewind system in which he explains some of the hurdles he had to deal with: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dinUbg2h70&t=5s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dinUbg2h70&t=5s Pay particular attention to the discussion of the background particles and how to get that to work within the RAM constraints. > On the other hand, on a software engineering level those paint by numbers Modern Warfare and FIFA games are both more technically impressive and are designed for fast iteration Hardly anything about these games change from release to release. They're not exploring new gameplay problem spaces, they're not doing anything super interesting or surprising on a technical level either and I don't get why you think they are. Of course if you keep using essentially the same engine and know exactly what you're trying to make, making another like a goddamned factory is going to happen quicker than if you're trying to make something unique and meaningful. > If clean code is about maintenance and time to market, the Blow paradigm hasn't proven that its needed or fixes the holes in clean code. I have heard "maintenance and scaling" as an excuse for poorly performing software for a long time now, yet what I'm not seeing is software that has features added on quick schedules and without bugs. So at best I'd say that it isn't accomplishing what it is supposed to and, at the same time, it is wasting our time and resources by producing slow software to boot.

by bbatha 4y ago

Is Blow even a good example to look at? He's released 2 games in 18 years which definitely had phenomenal game play but are not technically complex even for the the time.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago

Yes, he is a good example. His games are as highly regarded as they are because he takes the time to really work through everything about them and ensure they're the product he wants. If you watch his streams you'll see that he is constantly experimenting with things, both gameplay-wise and in the engine... and now in his own compiler for his own programming language. Jon is not making the by-the-numbers annual entry in the Call of FIFA series here. But also, as a nit pick, Jon isn't just programming all the time, he's running a business and he is very involved in the indie game community and a founding member of indie fund. And when he is programming it isn't always for his own games. Here is a link to the credits page for him at MobyGames: https://www.mobygames.com/person/188969/jonathan-blow/credits/ https://www.mobygames.com/person/188969/jonathan-blow/credit... Where in addition to nebulous "Special Thanks" credits, you will note programming and QA credits on several non-Thekla games.

bbatha 4y ago
Look I'm a huge fan of his games! And I really can't understate how influential his game design nor the work he does for the indie community. However, I think a lot of folks tend to assume his software engineering skills are great because his game design is excellent. I don't think that's an earned position. Releasing 2 games in 18 years that are not pushing the technical envelope does not scream software engineering expertise. You say he has more credits but only one of those is programming since Braid. On the other hand, on a software engineering level those paint by numbers Modern Warfare and FIFA games are both more technically impressive and are designed for fast iteration. Moreover he's pushing a particular paradigm and view point that is in many ways the opposite of clean code. He pushes for still doing very low level design with minimal abstractions. But even at the time Braid could have been written in python SDL wrappers and probably had similar performance, and the witness could have used unity. If clean code is about maintenance and time to market, the Blow paradigm hasn't proven that its needed or fixes the holes in clean code. This is not to say clean code is perfect just that Blow hasn't cracked the nut either and I don't know why people act like he is the final word, or honestly even a respected voice, in game software engineering. On the other hand, if Blow wanted to talk about managing indie studios or game design my ears would prick up instantly.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
  > I don't think that's an earned position. I disagree. > You say he has more credits but only one of those is programming since Braid. He did start a company after that you know. A successful one that makes money and employs people to make art. I don't imagine that running a business takes no time from his life. > But even at the time Braid could have been written in python SDL wrappers and probably had similar performance Braid did a lot more than you give it credit for. Here's a GDC talk about the rewind system in which he explains some of the hurdles he had to deal with: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dinUbg2h70&t=5s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dinUbg2h70&t=5s Pay particular attention to the discussion of the background particles and how to get that to work within the RAM constraints. > On the other hand, on a software engineering level those paint by numbers Modern Warfare and FIFA games are both more technically impressive and are designed for fast iteration Hardly anything about these games change from release to release. They're not exploring new gameplay problem spaces, they're not doing anything super interesting or surprising on a technical level either and I don't get why you think they are. Of course if you keep using essentially the same engine and know exactly what you're trying to make, making another like a goddamned factory is going to happen quicker than if you're trying to make something unique and meaningful. > If clean code is about maintenance and time to market, the Blow paradigm hasn't proven that its needed or fixes the holes in clean code. I have heard "maintenance and scaling" as an excuse for poorly performing software for a long time now, yet what I'm not seeing is software that has features added on quick schedules and without bugs. So at best I'd say that it isn't accomplishing what it is supposed to and, at the same time, it is wasting our time and resources by producing slow software to boot.